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> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The F

by lucb1e 1y ago

> The Framework Desktop with 64GB RAM + 2TB NVMe is $1,876. To get a Mac Studio with similar specs [...] you'll literally spend nearly twice as much [...] The Framework Desktop is simply a great deal. Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? I don't know that it logically follows that anything is a great deal when it undercuts Apple. Half sounds about right -- I thought Apple was a bit more competitive these days than ×2 actually, but apparently not, also considering that Framework comes with a (totally fair) niche-vendor premium

wmf 1y ago
That's purely due to Apple's ridiculous SSD pricing. You can save a lot of money by using an external SSD.
- cmrdporcupine 1y ago
  Don't forget how Apple rips you off on RAM. Always.
  - rubyn00bie 1y ago
    RAM isn’t cheap but it’s not awful, or as bad as it once was, especially in their laptops. One of the primary things that has kept me from buying a new Apple desktop or laptop is honestly SSD pricing. It’s absolutely ridiculous given how cheap 1TB or 2TB drives are. And generally, in my experience, the ones Apple uses have had subpar performance compared to what’s available for the PC market for less than half the price. Not to mention their base configuration machines usually have subtly crappier SSDs than a tier up. I haven’t bought a new Mac since Apple released the M-series. I’ve wanted to multiple times, but the value just isn’t there for me personally.
- alt227 1y ago
  Except they keep making it harder and harder to install your own drives into apple machines.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    You don’t install it but run over Thunderbolt which is plenty fast.
    - alt227 1y ago
      Right but external drives are no replacement for internal drives, so your point is moot.
      - stackskipton 1y ago
        Thunderbolt drives are almost native speed so unless whatever work you are doing is heavily IO bound, external drives are cheap way to boost storage for most people. Sure, Macs should not be so restricted but unless government take action, that's not going to happen.
  - GeekyBear 1y ago
    It's not difficult at all. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+Mac+mini+(2024)/180199 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
    - novaleaf 1y ago
      from the link: > Apple integrates the storage controllers into the Apple Silicon SoC, which means that normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible.
      - GeekyBear 1y ago
        Nevertheless, third parties have created compatible replacements that are much cheaper. They just don't need to include a SSD controller, since that is already built into the SOC.
        alt227 1y ago
masterj 1y ago
Apple charges an increased premium as you get further away from the base models. It’s really hard to find a better deal that the M4 base models
kingstnap 1y ago
Apple base models tend to be fairly competitive but they have some of the most extreme margins on RAM and SSDs in the industry. They charge $600 CAD to go from 16GB -> 32 GB. They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD.
- GeekyBear 1y ago
  > They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD. The SSD is user replaceable, so you can replace it with a cheaper third party option.
  - kllrnohj 1y ago
    The Mac Pro is the only Apple system that has user-replaceable storage. The Mac Mini & Studio both feature slotted storage modules, but Apple firmware locks it and so it can't be replaced much less upgraded.
    - GeekyBear 1y ago
      There is no firmware lock, and here's the iFixIt guide for doing it. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+Mac+mini+(2024)/180199 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
      - WithinReason 1y ago
        ...normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible. This guide is purely instructional for how to replace the SSD with another of the same type.
        GeekyBear 1y ago
        You can indeed purchase third party replacements up to the maximum size supported by that model.
    - skibble 1y ago
scosman 1y ago
He's comparing to a studio when he should compare to the mini for this performance. They are almost the same price at a 64gb RAM + 500gb storage config (CAD). - Framework, Max+ 64GB: $2,861.16 - Apple Mini M4 Pro, 64GB: $2,899.00 Apple does charge way too much for integrated storage, but Apple is only a 25% premium at 2TB not double (if you compare to the mini instead of the studio). Plug in a NVMe SSD if you're building an Apple desktop.
- dijit 1y ago
  Not to defend Apple here, but it's also a bit apples to oranges (heh) because the power consumption is not easily comparable. I would hazard a guess and say: at that spec, if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Since they're in spitting distance of each other, just get the one you're most comfortable with. Personally I prefer Linux and I'm really happy that non-Apple machines are starting to get closer to the same efficiency and performance!
  - ramesh31 1y ago
    You have to account for resale when it comes to TCO. Resale value for a non-Apple PC is essentially zero - i.e. no one will buy it, or you'll get pennies on the dollar if they do. Whereas there's a strong market for used Apple hardware, and you can easily recover 50% or more.
    - lucb1e 1y ago
      So you recover what you spent extra, per the article?
    - Aurornis 1y ago
      This is an exaggeration, or you're not comparing apples to apples. The used market for high performance PC gear is quite efficient. You're not going to get a high-end CPU or GPU from the past several years for pennies on the dollar. Likewise, the resale market for Apple products doesn't guarantee 50% or more unless you're only looking at resale value of very new hardware. For example, you can pick up an M1 Max MacBook Pro (not that old) for closer to 1/3 of the original price.
bestham 1y ago
The point is that before the AMD Ryzen Al Max+ 395 chip there was only Apple that offered something comparable for the desktop / laptop that could do these AI relate tasks. Were else could you find a GPU with 64-128 memory?
- goosedragons 1y ago
  Not as good but there's loads of devices with the Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 with 64-128GB of RAM.
Aurornis 1y ago
> Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? He didn't pick the equivalent Mac to compare to. The closest Mac would be a an M4 Pro Mac Mini, not a Mac Studio. Right now I see a 64GB M4 Pro Mac Mini with 2TB SSD is $2600. Still more expensive, but not double the price. The Apple refurbished store has the same model for $2200. The M4 Pro Mac Mini probably has the edge in performance, though I can't say how much. The Ryzen platform driver and software support is still early. I think these Strix Halo boxes are great, but I also think they're a little high in the hype cycle right now. Once supply and demand evens out I think they should be cheaper, though.
- motorest 1y ago
  > The Apple refurbished store has the same model (...) You have to admit this reads as grade A cope. Is it that hard to acknowledge that Apple price gouges all their product line?
  - 3836293648 1y ago
    No, the very cheapest (new) one is competetive, everything else is price gouged
benreesman 1y ago
Strix Halo is one of the tier-1 out-of-the-box perfect targets for for // hypermodern // nixos so I'm tuning it for the EVO-X2 which was the first desktop one available (and we'll support omarchy's hyprland rice out of the box, its a nice rice even if I prefer Ono-Sendai). That's getting you twice the RAM for the same price. Now the Framework has both intangible cool factor and scope for more upgrades, so if money is no object, get the Framework. But I can vouch for the EVO-X2 as the real Strix Halo experience: its thermals are solid, and even under sustained 100W+ its quieter than the average gaming PC. Obviously an elite ITX build can do better, but it's jaw-dropping at the price point: great ports, plenty of M.2 capacity, stable under extreme load, and a lot cheaper.
- OrvalWintermute 1y ago
  obligatory Neuromancer reference to get those sweet upvotes. Well played sir! <3
rafaelmn 1y ago
Others in this thread already pointed out Apple is price competitive at mac mini, and Apple is extremely price competitive since they switched to their own chips. I would love it if PC was in a better state, but ever since Intel started flopping everyone in the PC land is praising AMD while ignoring the fact that both of them are just underdelivering compared to Apple. You cannot even get a consumer grade CPU on PC with >128 bit memory bus other than this strix halo chip - and it happened by accident. There is nothing on roadmap in the mainstream that will bump it - industry is years away from adding it. Meanwhile Apple is benefiting from this since M1, and the AI workloads just made it an even larger win.

by lucb1e 1y ago

wmf 1y ago

That's purely due to Apple's ridiculous SSD pricing. You can save a lot of money by using an external SSD.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
Don't forget how Apple rips you off on RAM. Always.
- rubyn00bie 1y ago
  RAM isn’t cheap but it’s not awful, or as bad as it once was, especially in their laptops. One of the primary things that has kept me from buying a new Apple desktop or laptop is honestly SSD pricing. It’s absolutely ridiculous given how cheap 1TB or 2TB drives are. And generally, in my experience, the ones Apple uses have had subpar performance compared to what’s available for the PC market for less than half the price. Not to mention their base configuration machines usually have subtly crappier SSDs than a tier up. I haven’t bought a new Mac since Apple released the M-series. I’ve wanted to multiple times, but the value just isn’t there for me personally.
alt227 1y ago
Except they keep making it harder and harder to install your own drives into apple machines.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  You don’t install it but run over Thunderbolt which is plenty fast.
  - alt227 1y ago
    Right but external drives are no replacement for internal drives, so your point is moot.
    - stackskipton 1y ago
      Thunderbolt drives are almost native speed so unless whatever work you are doing is heavily IO bound, external drives are cheap way to boost storage for most people. Sure, Macs should not be so restricted but unless government take action, that's not going to happen.
- GeekyBear 1y ago
  It's not difficult at all. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+Mac+mini+(2024)/180199 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
  - novaleaf 1y ago
    from the link: > Apple integrates the storage controllers into the Apple Silicon SoC, which means that normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible.
    - GeekyBear 1y ago
      Nevertheless, third parties have created compatible replacements that are much cheaper. They just don't need to include a SSD controller, since that is already built into the SOC.
      - alt227 1y ago

masterj 1y ago

Apple charges an increased premium as you get further away from the base models. It’s really hard to find a better deal that the M4 base models

kingstnap 1y ago

Apple base models tend to be fairly competitive but they have some of the most extreme margins on RAM and SSDs in the industry. They charge $600 CAD to go from 16GB -> 32 GB. They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD.

GeekyBear 1y ago
> They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD. The SSD is user replaceable, so you can replace it with a cheaper third party option.
- kllrnohj 1y ago
  The Mac Pro is the only Apple system that has user-replaceable storage. The Mac Mini & Studio both feature slotted storage modules, but Apple firmware locks it and so it can't be replaced much less upgraded.
  - GeekyBear 1y ago
    There is no firmware lock, and here's the iFixIt guide for doing it. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+Mac+mini+(2024)/180199 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...
    - WithinReason 1y ago
      ...normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible. This guide is purely instructional for how to replace the SSD with another of the same type.
      - GeekyBear 1y ago
        You can indeed purchase third party replacements up to the maximum size supported by that model.
  - skibble 1y ago

scosman 1y ago

He's comparing to a studio when he should compare to the mini for this performance. They are almost the same price at a 64gb RAM + 500gb storage config (CAD). - Framework, Max+ 64GB: $2,861.16 - Apple Mini M4 Pro, 64GB: $2,899.00 Apple does charge way too much for integrated storage, but Apple is only a 25% premium at 2TB not double (if you compare to the mini instead of the studio). Plug in a NVMe SSD if you're building an Apple desktop.

dijit 1y ago
Not to defend Apple here, but it's also a bit apples to oranges (heh) because the power consumption is not easily comparable. I would hazard a guess and say: at that spec, if you're looking at 1Y TCO, the Apple could easily be cost competitive performance per dollar. Since they're in spitting distance of each other, just get the one you're most comfortable with. Personally I prefer Linux and I'm really happy that non-Apple machines are starting to get closer to the same efficiency and performance!
- ramesh31 1y ago
  You have to account for resale when it comes to TCO. Resale value for a non-Apple PC is essentially zero - i.e. no one will buy it, or you'll get pennies on the dollar if they do. Whereas there's a strong market for used Apple hardware, and you can easily recover 50% or more.
  - lucb1e 1y ago
    So you recover what you spent extra, per the article?
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    This is an exaggeration, or you're not comparing apples to apples. The used market for high performance PC gear is quite efficient. You're not going to get a high-end CPU or GPU from the past several years for pennies on the dollar. Likewise, the resale market for Apple products doesn't guarantee 50% or more unless you're only looking at resale value of very new hardware. For example, you can pick up an M1 Max MacBook Pro (not that old) for closer to 1/3 of the original price.

bestham 1y ago

The point is that before the AMD Ryzen Al Max+ 395 chip there was only Apple that offered something comparable for the desktop / laptop that could do these AI relate tasks. Were else could you find a GPU with 64-128 memory?

goosedragons 1y ago
Not as good but there's loads of devices with the Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 with 64-128GB of RAM.

Aurornis 1y ago

> Wow, someone managed to beat Apple on price?? He didn't pick the equivalent Mac to compare to. The closest Mac would be a an M4 Pro Mac Mini, not a Mac Studio. Right now I see a 64GB M4 Pro Mac Mini with 2TB SSD is $2600. Still more expensive, but not double the price. The Apple refurbished store has the same model for $2200. The M4 Pro Mac Mini probably has the edge in performance, though I can't say how much. The Ryzen platform driver and software support is still early. I think these Strix Halo boxes are great, but I also think they're a little high in the hype cycle right now. Once supply and demand evens out I think they should be cheaper, though.

motorest 1y ago
> The Apple refurbished store has the same model (...) You have to admit this reads as grade A cope. Is it that hard to acknowledge that Apple price gouges all their product line?
- 3836293648 1y ago
  No, the very cheapest (new) one is competetive, everything else is price gouged

benreesman 1y ago

Strix Halo is one of the tier-1 out-of-the-box perfect targets for for // hypermodern // nixos so I'm tuning it for the EVO-X2 which was the first desktop one available (and we'll support omarchy's hyprland rice out of the box, its a nice rice even if I prefer Ono-Sendai). That's getting you twice the RAM for the same price. Now the Framework has both intangible cool factor and scope for more upgrades, so if money is no object, get the Framework. But I can vouch for the EVO-X2 as the real Strix Halo experience: its thermals are solid, and even under sustained 100W+ its quieter than the average gaming PC. Obviously an elite ITX build can do better, but it's jaw-dropping at the price point: great ports, plenty of M.2 capacity, stable under extreme load, and a lot cheaper.

OrvalWintermute 1y ago
obligatory Neuromancer reference to get those sweet upvotes. Well played sir! <3

rafaelmn 1y ago

Others in this thread already pointed out Apple is price competitive at mac mini, and Apple is extremely price competitive since they switched to their own chips. I would love it if PC was in a better state, but ever since Intel started flopping everyone in the PC land is praising AMD while ignoring the fact that both of them are just underdelivering compared to Apple. You cannot even get a consumer grade CPU on PC with >128 bit memory bus other than this strix halo chip - and it happened by accident. There is nothing on roadmap in the mainstream that will bump it - industry is years away from adding it. Meanwhile Apple is benefiting from this since M1, and the AI workloads just made it an even larger win.