4 ms·

I can imagine a lot. In every possible scenario, the end of capitalism means disaster for the entire human race.

by nradov 1y ago

keiferski 1y ago
This is exactly the kind of low effort, no imagination response that I was referring to. No discussion of alternatives, no acknowledgement that maybe there are some issues with the current capitalist system, etc. Just apocalyptic language, with no openness to the idea that yeah, communism was a terrible system, but maybe that doesn’t automatically imply that contemporary capitalism is inherently the best system.
- nradov 1y ago
  Do you have anything constructive to offer or are you going to stick with low effort criticism without even proposing an alternative? So far all you have are weak complaints, totally disconnected from objective reality.
- vintagedave 1y ago
  Although I would argue with you that the communist governments were socialist -- they were not, at least under our current understanding of socialism (says one person contradicting another on the internet, this is opinion, I know :)) -- you're right about the intellectual blindness about other possibilities. I find Chesteron's distributism an interesting one, and personally really admire cooperative societies.
- qcnguy 1y ago
  Improving capitalism is possible in the abstract. The reason it's hard to imagine is that "capitalism" is not a real thing that exists concretely. It is a term used by communists to refer to the natural state of affairs that they wished to destroy. To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. Is it merely markets? If so then the Roman Empire was capitalist. Is it stock markets? Limited liability companies? Private property rights? All of the above? Who invented capitalism? If nobody did then is does it make sense to propose a replacement or is that like trying to propose a replacement for evolved things like natural wildlife ecosystems? Once you realize that capitalism is just the naturally evolved system of mechanisms used to coordinate any advanced economy, the problem of discussing alternatives becomes clear. It doesn't make sense to try and propose a full alternative because capitalism is only really definable as "the thing that's not communism", so it's unclear what exactly you'd be proposing an alternative to. As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. Not a radical overhaul.
  - andrekandre 1y ago
    > To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. this isn't actually an argument but an appeal; just because laypersons don't know how to frame something doesn't mean useful definitions don't exist > As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. thats not a strong argument; people could have said the same thing about feudal arrangements and slavery or kings and emperors at one time in the past
    - qcnguy 1y ago
      Modern capitalism evolved from those old arrangements, so, yes they could! It wasn't invented as a replacement of society via intelligent design. But OK, what's your definition?
nilamo 1y ago
That seems awfully defeatist and with a very negative view of the human spirit. I can imagine the end of Capitalism, and it looks like Star Trek.
- nradov 1y ago
  Nothing in Star Trek even makes any sense. It's a completely artificial universe, constructed as a background for telling fun stories. From the perspective of alternative economic systems it's no different than children's fairy tales. I am an optimist and capitalism looks like success. It's the exact opposite of defeatism.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Capitalism looks like exploited third world children in sweatshops making your t-shirts and phones. It's easy to see an exploitative system as success as long as one is on the side that does the exploiting.
    - ponector 1y ago
      Communism looks like exploited people stripped of their history and culture in gulag building useless inefficient projects.
      - bdangubic 1y ago
        You should take a look at how capitalism works, I’d start with like USA, see how many kids go to bed hungry, have no health insurance, etc. then I’d go to like inner City Philly or Chicago, then South to like Jackson Mississippi, check out how great all that shit is :)
        ponector 1y ago
        Or you can go to Zurich, take a look how capitalism looks there. And go check how socialism in North Korea works. People are people, top rich minority always finds ways to exploit poor majority under any system.
simlevesque 1y ago
Can you prove that capitalism isn't gonna end the entire human race ? I'm sure you can imagine anything but that's not really helpful.
- nradov 1y ago
  Can you prove that any other economic system isn't going to end the entire human race.
  - simlevesque 1y ago
    You're the one saying that capitalism is better. I didn't claim anything. Never said I knew what's best for the world. You said you do. So, tell us ! Claims require evidences.
saubeidl 1y ago
This is what ideological indoctrination looks like - it's worse than even amongst the CCP cadres.

I can imagine a lot. In every possible scenario, the end of capitalism means disaster for the entire human race.

by nradov 1y ago

I can imagine a lot. In every possible scenario, the end of capitalism means disaster for the entire human race.

This is exactly the kind of low effort, no imagination response that I was referring to. No discussion of alternatives, no acknowledgement that maybe there are some issues with the current capitalist system, etc. Just apocalyptic language, with no openness to the idea that yeah, communism was a terrible system, but maybe that doesn’t automatically imply that contemporary capitalism is inherently the best system.

nradov 1y ago
Do you have anything constructive to offer or are you going to stick with low effort criticism without even proposing an alternative? So far all you have are weak complaints, totally disconnected from objective reality.
vintagedave 1y ago
Although I would argue with you that the communist governments were socialist -- they were not, at least under our current understanding of socialism (says one person contradicting another on the internet, this is opinion, I know :)) -- you're right about the intellectual blindness about other possibilities. I find Chesteron's distributism an interesting one, and personally really admire cooperative societies.
qcnguy 1y ago
Improving capitalism is possible in the abstract. The reason it's hard to imagine is that "capitalism" is not a real thing that exists concretely. It is a term used by communists to refer to the natural state of affairs that they wished to destroy. To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. Is it merely markets? If so then the Roman Empire was capitalist. Is it stock markets? Limited liability companies? Private property rights? All of the above? Who invented capitalism? If nobody did then is does it make sense to propose a replacement or is that like trying to propose a replacement for evolved things like natural wildlife ecosystems? Once you realize that capitalism is just the naturally evolved system of mechanisms used to coordinate any advanced economy, the problem of discussing alternatives becomes clear. It doesn't make sense to try and propose a full alternative because capitalism is only really definable as "the thing that's not communism", so it's unclear what exactly you'd be proposing an alternative to. As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. Not a radical overhaul.
- andrekandre 1y ago
  > To see this, get two people together and try to get them to agree on when capitalism started, or even what a country needs to be considered a capitalist country. this isn't actually an argument but an appeal; just because laypersons don't know how to frame something doesn't mean useful definitions don't exist > As a naturally evolved system, the alternative to capitalism is therefore capitalism+some minor tweak. thats not a strong argument; people could have said the same thing about feudal arrangements and slavery or kings and emperors at one time in the past
  - qcnguy 1y ago
    Modern capitalism evolved from those old arrangements, so, yes they could! It wasn't invented as a replacement of society via intelligent design. But OK, what's your definition?

nilamo 1y ago

That seems awfully defeatist and with a very negative view of the human spirit. I can imagine the end of Capitalism, and it looks like Star Trek.

nradov 1y ago
Nothing in Star Trek even makes any sense. It's a completely artificial universe, constructed as a background for telling fun stories. From the perspective of alternative economic systems it's no different than children's fairy tales. I am an optimist and capitalism looks like success. It's the exact opposite of defeatism.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  Capitalism looks like exploited third world children in sweatshops making your t-shirts and phones. It's easy to see an exploitative system as success as long as one is on the side that does the exploiting.
  - ponector 1y ago
    Communism looks like exploited people stripped of their history and culture in gulag building useless inefficient projects.
    - bdangubic 1y ago
      You should take a look at how capitalism works, I’d start with like USA, see how many kids go to bed hungry, have no health insurance, etc. then I’d go to like inner City Philly or Chicago, then South to like Jackson Mississippi, check out how great all that shit is :)
      - ponector 1y ago
        Or you can go to Zurich, take a look how capitalism looks there. And go check how socialism in North Korea works. People are people, top rich minority always finds ways to exploit poor majority under any system.

simlevesque 1y ago

Can you prove that capitalism isn't gonna end the entire human race ? I'm sure you can imagine anything but that's not really helpful.

nradov 1y ago
Can you prove that any other economic system isn't going to end the entire human race.
- simlevesque 1y ago
  You're the one saying that capitalism is better. I didn't claim anything. Never said I knew what's best for the world. You said you do. So, tell us ! Claims require evidences.

saubeidl 1y ago

This is what ideological indoctrination looks like - it's worse than even amongst the CCP cadres.