8 ms·

Right. It is called holistic review. Originally invented to limit the number of Jewish people in top universities (not kidding)! Now being used to limit the num

Right. It is called holistic review. Originally invented to limit the number of Jewish people in top universities (not kidding)! Now being used to limit the number of Asians. Elite-College Admissions Were Built to Protect Privilege https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/history-privilege-elite-college-admissions/585088/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/histor... The new holistic admissions policy worked as intended, successfully suppressing Jewish admissions. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit-reveals-how-peculiar-harvards-definition-of-merit-is https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit... The 'holistic' admissions lie - The Daily Californian https://www.dailycal.org/2012/10/01/the-holistic-admissions-lie/ https://www.dailycal.org/2012/10/01/the-holistic-admissions-... The False Promise of 'Holistic' College Admissions - The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/12/the-false-promise-of-holistic-college-admissions/282432/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/12/the-fa... Lifting the Veil on the Holistic Process at the University of California, Berkeley - The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
fvgvkujdfbllo 1y ago
This is very eye opening. As a geek with strong academic background always felt cheated by the system. My professor explained that academics alone is not enough for success in life. He explained that some of the smartest engineers report to average business majors in companies. And he explained that that I cannot get any scholarships with perfect GPA while my roommate, a B student, has scholarships because he plays basketball and will likely get in leadership role in early on. That is good for the university as their graduates are seen as more successful. It was a hard thing to listen to but I accepted it. I wish he told me the truth though.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Just being smart won't get you anywhere.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    It will get you into Mensa.
- mgh2 1y ago
  Aside from "success", it is very reasonable to want to admit "well-rounded" or "balanced" individuals as net pluses to society. I heard the lack of balance in the Bay Area: "wierdos, tech bros, etc.". A geek can contribute either very positively or very negatively to society (ex: tech CEOs, unabomber, etc.), Maybe too young to judge at university admissions, but still a reasonable proxy (another topic).
  - falcor84 1y ago
    But a massive number of the bay area "weirdos" seem to come from elite schools; or is my frame of reference not representative?
    - mgh2 1y ago
      Maybe is just the concentration of technical talent (usually introverts, home buddies), whom put less emphasis on social skills.
- nradov 1y ago
  Certain types of management and leadership skills are learned more effectively in an elite sports team than in any engineering coursework. I think a lot of people who conceptualize the world in very rigid, rules-oriented ways fail to appreciate that.
  - hobs 1y ago
    Suuure, but in my experience you get the meathead who makes a sports analogy every time something needs to be done. Had to listen to someone talking about "humping it across the line" this week.
rayiner 1y ago
I don’t think that’s the whole story. The Ivy League are WASP institutions, and WASP culture always highly valued “well rounded” students and looked down on people who single mindedly perused an end. Back in the day, they didn’t need to screen for this explicitly, since it was already universal in the applicant pool. They just needed a test to sort out the smart ones from the dumb ones. When the applicant pool changed, holistic admissions became a way to maintain that cultural trait. You see the same thing with asians today. The competitive-admissions high school I attended went from. 30% asian to almost 70% asian. There was a backlash, almost entirely from very liberal white people. I don’t think any of them disliked Asians per se. But they wanted to preserve a certain culture in the school and all the Asians led to a change in the culture.
- oa335 1y ago
  > WASP culture always highly valued “well rounded” students and looked down on people who single mindedly perused an end Citation please.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    E.g. https://groveatlantic.com/book/flight-of-the-wasp/ https://groveatlantic.com/book/flight-of-the-wasp/
- eli_gottlieb 1y ago
  > The Ivy League are WASP institutions, and WASP culture always highly valued blah blah blah Ok, screw that and screw the Ivy League and the WASPs with it.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    > Ok, screw that and screw the Ivy League and the WASPs with it. I understand the sentiment and sometimes share it. But I’m also sad to recognize that while elite asians like me can excel within the systems created by WASPs, we probably wouldn’t have created such systems ourselves. What other group in history has created a system so fair that they were replaced-without being conquered—within the very institutions they themselves created? My dad was born in a village in Bangladesh and my brother went to Yale and is an executive at J.P. Morgan (two of the WASP-iest institutions in America). WASPs are a minority in these institutions now. This sort of thing basically only happens in Anglo countries. Good reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...
MPSFounder 1y ago
[flagged]
- rayiner 1y ago
  > Asian and Jewish kids today can game the system. This is just a cope. Poor Asians outperform in standardized metrics as well. New York’s selective admissions high schools, for example, are dominated by asians but have almost half of students qualifying for free or reduced price lunch. To another example, comparing Asian kids and Hispanic kids raised in the bottom quantile of the income distribution, the Asian kids are over three times more likely to end up in the top income quantile as adults: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-your-own-mobility-animation.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-y...
  - MPSFounder 1y ago
    This is not the perception I heard. People from SE Asia are welcome to comment on this (and they would provide a better perspective than I can) but I know several Cali people of Flipino or Vietnamese descent whose parents are not wealthy surgeons, and they also favor the holistic approach. It also becomes a problem of numbers. Hispanic and Asian kids are the fastest growing denominations in the US. It is very likely that many of them are recent immigrants and are not wealthy. Of course, I am not saying that having a sad story in and of itself is a hall pass. All I am saying is many comments here state that focusing SOLELY on grades and tests is fair, despite the fact that is not true. I went to a Top 5 college. I was not rich. I grew up with a mom that saved ice cream buckets to reuse them. I saw many rich kids' siblings take entire summers off to study and plan their applications. Whereas kids where I grew up in Detroit held summer jobs at country clubs, ice cream shops, and mall stores to help with bills. How are standardized tests fair with this context in mind? I am getting heavily down voted. I will say this. I was a white kid, whose parents were not wealthy. I was a refugee. And I am in favor of the holistic approach. I think it speaks volumes on here when rich white guys who are typically progressives line up with Trump policies on this matter (the other big one being Israel). I think this is where you take a hard look in the mirror, and question whether what you believe is right. I am not arguing further on this topic. I am a living experience of it. Reducing entire applicants to those metrics that are believed on here to be objective is reductionist, and I promise you, the most accomplished engineers and founders will not come from that pool of applicants you worship.
tzs 1y ago
Counterexample: Caltech uses holistic admissions and no one has found any signs of it limiting Asians.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

fvgvkujdfbllo 1y ago

This is very eye opening. As a geek with strong academic background always felt cheated by the system. My professor explained that academics alone is not enough for success in life. He explained that some of the smartest engineers report to average business majors in companies. And he explained that that I cannot get any scholarships with perfect GPA while my roommate, a B student, has scholarships because he plays basketball and will likely get in leadership role in early on. That is good for the university as their graduates are seen as more successful. It was a hard thing to listen to but I accepted it. I wish he told me the truth though.

WalterBright 1y ago
Just being smart won't get you anywhere.
- adastra22 1y ago
  It will get you into Mensa.
mgh2 1y ago
Aside from "success", it is very reasonable to want to admit "well-rounded" or "balanced" individuals as net pluses to society. I heard the lack of balance in the Bay Area: "wierdos, tech bros, etc.". A geek can contribute either very positively or very negatively to society (ex: tech CEOs, unabomber, etc.), Maybe too young to judge at university admissions, but still a reasonable proxy (another topic).
- falcor84 1y ago
  But a massive number of the bay area "weirdos" seem to come from elite schools; or is my frame of reference not representative?
  - mgh2 1y ago
    Maybe is just the concentration of technical talent (usually introverts, home buddies), whom put less emphasis on social skills.
nradov 1y ago
Certain types of management and leadership skills are learned more effectively in an elite sports team than in any engineering coursework. I think a lot of people who conceptualize the world in very rigid, rules-oriented ways fail to appreciate that.
- hobs 1y ago
  Suuure, but in my experience you get the meathead who makes a sports analogy every time something needs to be done. Had to listen to someone talking about "humping it across the line" this week.

rayiner 1y ago

I don’t think that’s the whole story. The Ivy League are WASP institutions, and WASP culture always highly valued “well rounded” students and looked down on people who single mindedly perused an end. Back in the day, they didn’t need to screen for this explicitly, since it was already universal in the applicant pool. They just needed a test to sort out the smart ones from the dumb ones. When the applicant pool changed, holistic admissions became a way to maintain that cultural trait. You see the same thing with asians today. The competitive-admissions high school I attended went from. 30% asian to almost 70% asian. There was a backlash, almost entirely from very liberal white people. I don’t think any of them disliked Asians per se. But they wanted to preserve a certain culture in the school and all the Asians led to a change in the culture.

oa335 1y ago
> WASP culture always highly valued “well rounded” students and looked down on people who single mindedly perused an end Citation please.
- rayiner 1y ago
  E.g. https://groveatlantic.com/book/flight-of-the-wasp/ https://groveatlantic.com/book/flight-of-the-wasp/
eli_gottlieb 1y ago
> The Ivy League are WASP institutions, and WASP culture always highly valued blah blah blah Ok, screw that and screw the Ivy League and the WASPs with it.
- rayiner 1y ago
  > Ok, screw that and screw the Ivy League and the WASPs with it. I understand the sentiment and sometimes share it. But I’m also sad to recognize that while elite asians like me can excel within the systems created by WASPs, we probably wouldn’t have created such systems ourselves. What other group in history has created a system so fair that they were replaced-without being conquered—within the very institutions they themselves created? My dad was born in a village in Bangladesh and my brother went to Yale and is an executive at J.P. Morgan (two of the WASP-iest institutions in America). WASPs are a minority in these institutions now. This sort of thing basically only happens in Anglo countries. Good reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...

MPSFounder 1y ago

[flagged]

rayiner 1y ago
> Asian and Jewish kids today can game the system. This is just a cope. Poor Asians outperform in standardized metrics as well. New York’s selective admissions high schools, for example, are dominated by asians but have almost half of students qualifying for free or reduced price lunch. To another example, comparing Asian kids and Hispanic kids raised in the bottom quantile of the income distribution, the Asian kids are over three times more likely to end up in the top income quantile as adults: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-your-own-mobility-animation.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-y...
- MPSFounder 1y ago
  This is not the perception I heard. People from SE Asia are welcome to comment on this (and they would provide a better perspective than I can) but I know several Cali people of Flipino or Vietnamese descent whose parents are not wealthy surgeons, and they also favor the holistic approach. It also becomes a problem of numbers. Hispanic and Asian kids are the fastest growing denominations in the US. It is very likely that many of them are recent immigrants and are not wealthy. Of course, I am not saying that having a sad story in and of itself is a hall pass. All I am saying is many comments here state that focusing SOLELY on grades and tests is fair, despite the fact that is not true. I went to a Top 5 college. I was not rich. I grew up with a mom that saved ice cream buckets to reuse them. I saw many rich kids' siblings take entire summers off to study and plan their applications. Whereas kids where I grew up in Detroit held summer jobs at country clubs, ice cream shops, and mall stores to help with bills. How are standardized tests fair with this context in mind? I am getting heavily down voted. I will say this. I was a white kid, whose parents were not wealthy. I was a refugee. And I am in favor of the holistic approach. I think it speaks volumes on here when rich white guys who are typically progressives line up with Trump policies on this matter (the other big one being Israel). I think this is where you take a hard look in the mirror, and question whether what you believe is right. I am not arguing further on this topic. I am a living experience of it. Reducing entire applicants to those metrics that are believed on here to be objective is reductionist, and I promise you, the most accomplished engineers and founders will not come from that pool of applicants you worship.

tzs 1y ago

Counterexample: Caltech uses holistic admissions and no one has found any signs of it limiting Asians.