5 ms·

Everyone calls them Interviews but they are not really interviews. They are exams. Oral exams, live coding exams, system architecture exams, take-home exams, b

by ozgung 1y ago

Everyone calls them Interviews but they are not really interviews. They are exams. Oral exams, live coding exams, system architecture exams, take-home exams, behavioral examinations, code review exams, extended essay writing exams, case study exams, sample work trials. You can't be a real professional if you have to take exams in every job change. In serious professions, people take exams early in their careers for being certified. Sometimes they take additional exams to renew their certificates. And that's all. They don't take exams from random people in random companies that know nothing about evaluating knowledge. They take official, standardized exams prepared by professional testers/educators. Engineering jobs can't be standardized. Engineering and required skills and knowledge is too broad for that. An interview is not an exam. It's a meeting. The interviewer asks questions to learn about the candidate. The interviewer may ask some questions to learn about the company and the position. That's all. That's the universal definition of a job interview. All the other things are additional tests and exams. Do they need to do those exams for better selection? Probably not. Their "hiring process"es are not backed by any science. Then why are they doing that? They have to filter somehow. If there are 1 to 100s ratio of candidates for each position, they need to filter hard. Exams are the standard method for ranking and filtering. But we are professional engineers, not students.

Henchman21 1y ago
Sounds like you’re arguing for a professional licensing regime to exist
- ghaff 1y ago
  In software at least, professional licensing exams basically petered out because no one required them so no one cared.
  - billy99k 1y ago
    My guess is that it would impede outsourcing and end up costing companies too much money.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      In general, licensing is for regulatory reasons (e.g. signing off on drawings). Engineers don't generally do it unless there is some industry requirement to do so (especially in civil engineering). And there mostly isn't in software. I started the engineer-in-training track when I was in the offshore drilling industry but then I left and never went back.
- thrown-0825 1y ago
  There should be. Engineers are liable for their failure.
  - sensanaty 1y ago
    And on the plus side that liability also provides people a lever with which they can push back against stupid managerial decisions. My father was an aeronautical engineer, and his favorite word to say to management was "No". Yes, the engine inspection takes a long time. No, I cannot cut corners in any way just to save you some money (No idea if this is just one of his stories or a real situation, but you get the idea :p ). I don't know why people are so against it in this field
    - tukantje 1y ago
      We have this idea that gatekeeping in all its forms is bad; and like all absolutes it is not true.
      - syncmaster913n 1y ago
        > and like all absolutes it is not true. Like this absolute? ;-)
    - agent327 1y ago
      > I don't know why people are so against it in this field Because the vast majority of failing software just means inconvenience, rather than disaster.
      - thrown-0825 1y ago
        Tell that to people having their identities stolen every time a data breach happens.
master_crab 1y ago
The only issue is that Software Engineering (is that the term we use?) does have more churn and change than other types that have PEs like Civil. Not saying it’s not possible to focus on fundamentals that have only changed superficially in decades (like the networking stack or data structures), but it is more difficult in this field.
zanderwohl 1y ago
> In serious professions, people take exams early in their careers for being certified. Sometimes they take additional exams to renew their certificates. And that's all. The field of programming emerged from mathematics, not engineering unfortunately. So we lack any useful certification processes.
- musicale 1y ago
  At many schools, CS departments emerged from Electrical Engineering departments. Some (MIT, Berkeley, ...) even have a combined EECS department, while others (Stanford) are part of the school of engineering. However, it does not seem to be common practice for computing professionals to acquire professional engineering certification. (Perhaps graduation from an accredited program is considered to be equivalent?) There do seem to be Professional Engineer (PE) certifications for computer engineering at least: https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer/ https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer/ https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/FINAL_PE-Electrical_Computer_Oct_2025.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/FINAL_PE-Electr... There are also company-specific certifications (from Microsoft, Cisco, etc.) but those are less general.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  It's not like all engineers are certified. And people have tried to create certifications for programming, they just suck.
thrown-0825 1y ago
Most devs are not engineers, and has not passed a licensing board or belong to any professional associations. Most devs are doing work that more closely resembles pipe fitting or carpentry than any engineering discipline.
- musicale 1y ago
  > devs are doing work that more closely resembles pipe fitting or carpentry Yet plumbers and carpenters (and electricians) are all licensed.
- testing22321 1y ago
  I have a Bachelor of Software Engineering. The degree is fully accredited by, and I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers. We do exist, but as you said very rare. There were 12 of us in my graduating class in 2004.
  - musicale 1y ago
    This is an interesting point. Most US universities are accredited overall, but their individual engineering programs aren't always accredited by engineering accreditors. For example, UC Berkeley's EECS department lost its ABET accreditation in 2020 (which it had maintained since 1983.) Stanford University lost its ABET accreditation in Electrical Engineering in 2014 (which it had maintained since 1936.) In contrast, nearby Santa Clara University and San José State University both have ABET-accredited EE and CS programs. So, consider hiring some of their graduates! Many computing professionals are members of professional societies such as ACM or IEEE (and many are not since they don't see the value in the expensive dues.) What has also not been widely adopted, and has even been opposed, is standardized professional engineering certification (exams, licensing, continuing education requirements, etc.) for computing professions such as software development. I think this may be related to the computing industry's remarkable success in avoiding liability and associated regulation, particularly for software and online services.
    - _zephyr 1y ago
mixmastamyk 1y ago
Indeed, and ridiculous exams at that. Imagine being at school and they had a several question exam from anything across a four year degree. No information on what area to focus on, because there’s no focus on purpose. Quarter of a million dollars in a suitcase, loaded gun, and a copper ticking clock on the table next to you. Picture of your kids that need new school clothes. Miss one question and you fail. Must also be confident, friendly, and not too old while doing it. —> “I can’t find anyone that can pass my simple test, they must all be frauds.” This is not how proper exams work, and for good reason.
- zx8080 1y ago
  > Imagine being at school and they had a several question exam from anything across a four year degree. No information on what area to focus on Hey, that's my PhD entrance exams!
  - mixmastamyk 1y ago
    Sudden death?

by ozgung 1y ago

Henchman21 1y ago

Sounds like you’re arguing for a professional licensing regime to exist

ghaff 1y ago
In software at least, professional licensing exams basically petered out because no one required them so no one cared.
- billy99k 1y ago
  My guess is that it would impede outsourcing and end up costing companies too much money.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    In general, licensing is for regulatory reasons (e.g. signing off on drawings). Engineers don't generally do it unless there is some industry requirement to do so (especially in civil engineering). And there mostly isn't in software. I started the engineer-in-training track when I was in the offshore drilling industry but then I left and never went back.
thrown-0825 1y ago
There should be. Engineers are liable for their failure.
- sensanaty 1y ago
  And on the plus side that liability also provides people a lever with which they can push back against stupid managerial decisions. My father was an aeronautical engineer, and his favorite word to say to management was "No". Yes, the engine inspection takes a long time. No, I cannot cut corners in any way just to save you some money (No idea if this is just one of his stories or a real situation, but you get the idea :p ). I don't know why people are so against it in this field
  - tukantje 1y ago
    We have this idea that gatekeeping in all its forms is bad; and like all absolutes it is not true.
    - syncmaster913n 1y ago
      > and like all absolutes it is not true. Like this absolute? ;-)
  - agent327 1y ago
    > I don't know why people are so against it in this field Because the vast majority of failing software just means inconvenience, rather than disaster.
    - thrown-0825 1y ago
      Tell that to people having their identities stolen every time a data breach happens.

master_crab 1y ago

The only issue is that Software Engineering (is that the term we use?) does have more churn and change than other types that have PEs like Civil. Not saying it’s not possible to focus on fundamentals that have only changed superficially in decades (like the networking stack or data structures), but it is more difficult in this field.

zanderwohl 1y ago

> In serious professions, people take exams early in their careers for being certified. Sometimes they take additional exams to renew their certificates. And that's all. The field of programming emerged from mathematics, not engineering unfortunately. So we lack any useful certification processes.

musicale 1y ago
At many schools, CS departments emerged from Electrical Engineering departments. Some (MIT, Berkeley, ...) even have a combined EECS department, while others (Stanford) are part of the school of engineering. However, it does not seem to be common practice for computing professionals to acquire professional engineering certification. (Perhaps graduation from an accredited program is considered to be equivalent?) There do seem to be Professional Engineer (PE) certifications for computer engineering at least: https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer/ https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer/ https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/FINAL_PE-Electrical_Computer_Oct_2025.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/FINAL_PE-Electr... There are also company-specific certifications (from Microsoft, Cisco, etc.) but those are less general.
IshKebab 1y ago
It's not like all engineers are certified. And people have tried to create certifications for programming, they just suck.

thrown-0825 1y ago

Most devs are not engineers, and has not passed a licensing board or belong to any professional associations. Most devs are doing work that more closely resembles pipe fitting or carpentry than any engineering discipline.

musicale 1y ago
> devs are doing work that more closely resembles pipe fitting or carpentry Yet plumbers and carpenters (and electricians) are all licensed.
testing22321 1y ago
I have a Bachelor of Software Engineering. The degree is fully accredited by, and I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers. We do exist, but as you said very rare. There were 12 of us in my graduating class in 2004.
- musicale 1y ago
  This is an interesting point. Most US universities are accredited overall, but their individual engineering programs aren't always accredited by engineering accreditors. For example, UC Berkeley's EECS department lost its ABET accreditation in 2020 (which it had maintained since 1983.) Stanford University lost its ABET accreditation in Electrical Engineering in 2014 (which it had maintained since 1936.) In contrast, nearby Santa Clara University and San José State University both have ABET-accredited EE and CS programs. So, consider hiring some of their graduates! Many computing professionals are members of professional societies such as ACM or IEEE (and many are not since they don't see the value in the expensive dues.) What has also not been widely adopted, and has even been opposed, is standardized professional engineering certification (exams, licensing, continuing education requirements, etc.) for computing professions such as software development. I think this may be related to the computing industry's remarkable success in avoiding liability and associated regulation, particularly for software and online services.
  - _zephyr 1y ago

mixmastamyk 1y ago

Indeed, and ridiculous exams at that. Imagine being at school and they had a several question exam from anything across a four year degree. No information on what area to focus on, because there’s no focus on purpose. Quarter of a million dollars in a suitcase, loaded gun, and a copper ticking clock on the table next to you. Picture of your kids that need new school clothes. Miss one question and you fail. Must also be confident, friendly, and not too old while doing it. —> “I can’t find anyone that can pass my simple test, they must all be frauds.” This is not how proper exams work, and for good reason.

zx8080 1y ago
> Imagine being at school and they had a several question exam from anything across a four year degree. No information on what area to focus on Hey, that's my PhD entrance exams!
- mixmastamyk 1y ago
  Sudden death?