6 ms·

I've never felt like I knew how to use Tor correctly, or trusted anyone to be able to guide me on that.

sherr 1y ago
I sympathise with a bit of paranoia about this. Personally, I'd use a platform like "Tails" (do your own research) which wraps Tor up in a USB bootable Linux OS. https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/
hnuser123456 1y ago
Back when I tried, it was a modified Firefox build.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  That's just a browser form of it: https://www.torproject.org/download/ https://www.torproject.org/download/
abdullahkhalids 1y ago
Simply download the Tor Browser [1], which is simply a hardened version of Firefox that connects to the Tor network. Don't install addons in this browser. Don't resize the browser window. All tor browsers instances have the same default window size, which prevents websites from tracking you. Obviously don't login into websites with your regular email or provide websites with your PII. If you are in a country or on a network that blocks the basic Tor network, the FAQ explains how to get around this by using Tor bridges or other techniques [2]. That's pretty much all you need to know. [1] https://www.torproject.org/download/ https://www.torproject.org/download/ [2] https://support.torproject.org/censorship/ https://support.torproject.org/censorship/
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  > All tor browsers instances have the same default window size, which prevents websites from tracking you. Wouldn't that in and of itself be a possible clue that someone was using Tor?
  - keysdev 1y ago
    Or a computer of that window size, and there a lot browsers that dont support js.
  - qualeed 1y ago
    Figuring out someone is using Tor is trivial (e.g. list of exit node IPs https://www.dan.me.uk/torlist/?exit https://www.dan.me.uk/torlist/?exit). This mitigation helps protect the individual Tor user (e.g. with a unique 1726x907 px window) being fingerprinted across multiple sessions / sites.
    - trod1234 1y ago
      They removed OS spoofing just recently, and there isn't a mitigation for Raptor, some think meek might help with Raptor, but its very much up in the air.
      - qualeed 1y ago
        There is partial mitigation for RAPTOR: Counter-RAPTOR from 2017 (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7958620 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=795...) with mostly the same authors. I haven't kept up with the space much since then, so am unaware if there is more recent work. In any case, there are valid threat models where you want to mitigate website fingerprinting but aren't necessarily concerned with AS-level adversaries.
        trod1234 1y ago
        I've seen that, but I didn't see much of a mitigation, though I'll go back and recheck just to be sure, I was pressed for time last time I look at that. In fairness, most of big tech are AS-level adversaries at this point. Active attack through BGP-hijacking may be partially mitigated, but this isn't really needed for the most pernicious attacks which are interception/injection from a regional entity that's routing to the broader internet (outbound connections). The same entities can do early transparent encryption termination for outbound connections (to the general web) since they have their own private signing keys tied to root trust CAs (just not the one the valid cert was issued to), and that lets them collect a treasure trove of forensic artifacts to improve their citizen dossier for advertisers/highest-bidder, or inject content that is ephemeral in nature.
- ignoramous 1y ago
  > That's pretty much all you need to know. Depends on the level of anonymity the end-user desires. That rabbit hole is deep, but not that deep: https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/advanced-privacy-and-anonymity-part-4/ https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/advanced-privacy-and-ano... / https://archive.today/9DhtT https://archive.today/9DhtT (by u/mirmir)
  - qualeed 1y ago
    For a guide that goes into so much detail (as far as suggesting enterprise-grade drives, recommended RAID configurations, etc.), not even a passing mention of Tails or Qubes-Whonix is a really interesting choice (read: discouraging omission)!
- sorenjan 1y ago
  Is window size visible to web sites when java script is turned off? It's off by default in Tor browser.
  - qualeed 1y ago
    It's on by default in Tor browser. You have to explicitly switch to "Safest" mode to turn it off completely. >Why does Tor Browser ship with JavaScript enabled? We configure NoScript to allow JavaScript by default in Tor Browser because many websites will not work with JavaScript disabled. Most users would give up on Tor entirely if we disabled JavaScript by default because it would cause so many problems for them. Ultimately, we want to make Tor Browser as secure as possible while also making it usable for the majority of people, so for now, that means leaving JavaScript enabled by default. https://support.torproject.org/tbb/tbb-34/ https://support.torproject.org/tbb/tbb-34/
  - minitech 1y ago
    Yes, CSS and <picture> etc. can load different resources based on viewport size. Then there are side channels like lazy loading, layout + what you interact with.
  - NoahZuniga 1y ago
    Yes, even without JS a website can tell what size your browser window is. One way would be to use a large amount of media queries like so: @media (min-width: 1000px) { #tester-1000 { background-image: url("1000.png"); } } You could also imagine a website first using ~15 queries to know what the window width is upto 100px, and then provide coarser media queries on the next page load.
    - NoahZuniga 1y ago
      *finer, not coarser
- mvieira38 1y ago
  Also don't use non-HTTPS websites while using Tor, and avoid downloading things on hidden services. Using a clearnet website's hidden service is better than the https version if available (duckduckgo and reddit offer both, for example), too, although only marginally so
  - qualeed 1y ago
    There's a ton of little things like this (e.g. you also should consider not using bookmarks, or at least avoiding obscure ones). A good overview is available at https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Tor_Browser#Unsafe_Tor_Browser_Habits https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Tor_Browser#Unsafe_Tor_Browser_H...
jandrese 1y ago
The generally recommended way is to download Tails to a USB thumb drive and boot off of that. This is safer than just using the TOR browser and if something does attack your system none of your actual data is on the OS. https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/

I sympathise with a bit of paranoia about this. Personally, I'd use a platform like "Tails" (do your own research) which wraps Tor up in a USB bootable Linux OS. https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/

hnuser123456 1y ago

Back when I tried, it was a modified Firefox build.

burnt-resistor 1y ago
That's just a browser form of it: https://www.torproject.org/download/ https://www.torproject.org/download/

abdullahkhalids 1y ago

Simply download the Tor Browser [1], which is simply a hardened version of Firefox that connects to the Tor network. Don't install addons in this browser. Don't resize the browser window. All tor browsers instances have the same default window size, which prevents websites from tracking you. Obviously don't login into websites with your regular email or provide websites with your PII. If you are in a country or on a network that blocks the basic Tor network, the FAQ explains how to get around this by using Tor bridges or other techniques [2]. That's pretty much all you need to know. [1] https://www.torproject.org/download/ https://www.torproject.org/download/ [2] https://support.torproject.org/censorship/ https://support.torproject.org/censorship/

lenerdenator 1y ago
> All tor browsers instances have the same default window size, which prevents websites from tracking you. Wouldn't that in and of itself be a possible clue that someone was using Tor?
- keysdev 1y ago
  Or a computer of that window size, and there a lot browsers that dont support js.
- qualeed 1y ago
  Figuring out someone is using Tor is trivial (e.g. list of exit node IPs https://www.dan.me.uk/torlist/?exit https://www.dan.me.uk/torlist/?exit). This mitigation helps protect the individual Tor user (e.g. with a unique 1726x907 px window) being fingerprinted across multiple sessions / sites.
  - trod1234 1y ago
    They removed OS spoofing just recently, and there isn't a mitigation for Raptor, some think meek might help with Raptor, but its very much up in the air.
    - qualeed 1y ago
      There is partial mitigation for RAPTOR: Counter-RAPTOR from 2017 (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7958620 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=795...) with mostly the same authors. I haven't kept up with the space much since then, so am unaware if there is more recent work. In any case, there are valid threat models where you want to mitigate website fingerprinting but aren't necessarily concerned with AS-level adversaries.
      - trod1234 1y ago
        I've seen that, but I didn't see much of a mitigation, though I'll go back and recheck just to be sure, I was pressed for time last time I look at that. In fairness, most of big tech are AS-level adversaries at this point. Active attack through BGP-hijacking may be partially mitigated, but this isn't really needed for the most pernicious attacks which are interception/injection from a regional entity that's routing to the broader internet (outbound connections). The same entities can do early transparent encryption termination for outbound connections (to the general web) since they have their own private signing keys tied to root trust CAs (just not the one the valid cert was issued to), and that lets them collect a treasure trove of forensic artifacts to improve their citizen dossier for advertisers/highest-bidder, or inject content that is ephemeral in nature.
ignoramous 1y ago
> That's pretty much all you need to know. Depends on the level of anonymity the end-user desires. That rabbit hole is deep, but not that deep: https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/advanced-privacy-and-anonymity-part-4/ https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/advanced-privacy-and-ano... / https://archive.today/9DhtT https://archive.today/9DhtT (by u/mirmir)
- qualeed 1y ago
  For a guide that goes into so much detail (as far as suggesting enterprise-grade drives, recommended RAID configurations, etc.), not even a passing mention of Tails or Qubes-Whonix is a really interesting choice (read: discouraging omission)!
sorenjan 1y ago
Is window size visible to web sites when java script is turned off? It's off by default in Tor browser.
- qualeed 1y ago
  It's on by default in Tor browser. You have to explicitly switch to "Safest" mode to turn it off completely. >Why does Tor Browser ship with JavaScript enabled? We configure NoScript to allow JavaScript by default in Tor Browser because many websites will not work with JavaScript disabled. Most users would give up on Tor entirely if we disabled JavaScript by default because it would cause so many problems for them. Ultimately, we want to make Tor Browser as secure as possible while also making it usable for the majority of people, so for now, that means leaving JavaScript enabled by default. https://support.torproject.org/tbb/tbb-34/ https://support.torproject.org/tbb/tbb-34/
- minitech 1y ago
  Yes, CSS and <picture> etc. can load different resources based on viewport size. Then there are side channels like lazy loading, layout + what you interact with.
- NoahZuniga 1y ago
  Yes, even without JS a website can tell what size your browser window is. One way would be to use a large amount of media queries like so: @media (min-width: 1000px) { #tester-1000 { background-image: url("1000.png"); } } You could also imagine a website first using ~15 queries to know what the window width is upto 100px, and then provide coarser media queries on the next page load.
  - NoahZuniga 1y ago
    *finer, not coarser
mvieira38 1y ago
Also don't use non-HTTPS websites while using Tor, and avoid downloading things on hidden services. Using a clearnet website's hidden service is better than the https version if available (duckduckgo and reddit offer both, for example), too, although only marginally so
- qualeed 1y ago
  There's a ton of little things like this (e.g. you also should consider not using bookmarks, or at least avoiding obscure ones). A good overview is available at https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Tor_Browser#Unsafe_Tor_Browser_Habits https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Tor_Browser#Unsafe_Tor_Browser_H...

jandrese 1y ago

The generally recommended way is to download Tails to a USB thumb drive and boot off of that. This is safer than just using the TOR browser and if something does attack your system none of your actual data is on the OS. https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/