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I am increasingly certain that culture is by far the biggest limiting factor when it comes to large-scale problem solving now and in the future. We couldn't ev

I am increasingly certain that culture is by far the biggest limiting factor when it comes to large-scale problem solving now and in the future. We couldn't even reliably get people to put a piece of fabric over their face to stop killing their own relatives. Even if we could build a generation ship, it would turn into an Event Horizon hellscape if we don't figure out better cultural, communication, and sociological tools to enable us to get along and work together effectively.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> We couldn't even reliably get people to put a piece of fabric over their face Rural Americans couldn’t. But I don’t see anyone proposing we put high school dropouts and polio patients in space. China, India and Japan managed to pass that test just fine. I imagine one of the former two will be the first to colonise deep space.
- kryogen1c 1y ago
  >> kill their relatives > Rural Americans > high school dropouts Lol HN you really are too much sometimes. Covid went really well in all the intellectual bastions of liberal democracy right? NYC, SF? California famously no downsides from their policy choices at all. And then to top it off, you compare response to China - the government that lied through it's teeth about covid from the beginning, jailed journalists and destroyed evidence. Unreal
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    Oh, nobody managed Covid well. The question was capacity to sacrifice for the common good. New York is a bad example to call out since it was one of the first places to get hit, locked down hard after a delay, and yet came out with lower per-capita deaths and a stronger economy than most red states. (Speaking as someone who lives in one of the reddest states in the union.) > jailed journalists and destroyed evidence Not sure we can call anyone out on this anymore.
    - jvanderbot 1y ago
      The question is not "Would a randomly selected demographic be a good pool for this mission" The question is "Could we create a cadre of 400 highly effective people that could sustain a colony on a spaceship. I argue the answer to the first is "No" for any demographic but the answer to the second is a clear "Yes".
      - judahmeek 1y ago
        > The question is "Could we create a cadre of 400 highly effective people that could sustain a colony on a spaceship?" For a generational ship, the question becomes even more complex because you would have to build a culture of expertise that can sustain itself over multiple generations.
      - icetank 1y ago
        Maybe the issue is that people assume that a randomly selected population would consist of US citizens. What if you picked Japanese? They did well during covid. An they are know for having a strong communal responsibility. Maybe the average US citizen is just a bad choice for a generation ship? Then again given the choice between sending foreign citizen's or sending no generation ship would probably result in no generation ship bring launched.
        m4rtink 1y ago
        People from latin america might be a good match - last time the fleet of generation ships not only reached the destination in sufficient number, but one of them even ahead of schedule[0]! [0] https://revelationspace.fandom.com/wiki/Sky_Haussmann https://revelationspace.fandom.com/wiki/Sky_Haussmann
    - marcusverus 1y ago
      > The question was capacity to sacrifice for the common good. COVID didn't test for capacity to sacrifice for the common good. Sacrifice is voluntary. It tested for capacity to submit to authoritarian control for the common good.
- jval43 1y ago
  Urban Europeans had just as much trouble (speaking as one).
  - varjag 1y ago
    "Europeans" is kinda broad brush. Norwegians around me had little trouble following the safety instructions. Still not sold though that the cohesion in an small, resource constrained, artificial community can hold over a few generations. Huge risks of it degrading into some cult/dictatorship.
    - icetank 1y ago
      I don't see why smaller societies should not be able to thrive. My grandparents said once that back in the day you could identify what rural village someone was from by their accent. Meaning populations inside of villages changed very little. And most of these villages did just fine with populations as low as 200.
      - rurban 1y ago
        Maybe that's why they seperate the ship into 5 indendent areas, each 480 people. So that at least one culture will survive for 400 years.
      - varjag 1y ago
        They all existed within the greater (regional, national) social context. There still was freedom of movement even if at much greater cost. There were avenues for delinquents and outcasts to seek fortunes in the cities or even overseas. There was no overarching purpose imposed on their life other than the religion. This is not to say that generation ship societies are doomed to fail but chances are decent.
      - random_is_rando 1y ago
        The real question is what stops them from declaring independence and cutting ties with Earth. Especially after generations of people? They'd need strong ... propaganda, for lack of a better word.
- munificent 1y ago
  > Rural Americans couldn’t. One of the primary causes of our cultural disfunction is our seemingly intrinsic compulsion to separate ourselves into groups of Us and Them, and have no limit to the amount of disparaging, scorn, and dehumanization we are willing to dump onto Them.
mighmi 1y ago
Sweden did not have a mask mandate and did very well.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- teiferer 1y ago
  Are you opining from the outside or did you live here during the pandemic? If you entered a bus or any public space during that time, most people were wearing masks. And bus schedules were heavily adjusted to decrease density of people. Society did a lot to fight the virus, just not based on mandates but based on getting people to voluntarily do what was necessary because they in majority used common sense and an undertanding of what's the danger and what is needed. Similar to what an intergenerational space ship would need. So, if your argument is "you can solve big problems without coersion" then I'm with you. You need a high trust society. Though if your argument is "the mask stuff was just BS, just look at Sweden, they didn't use any and turned out well" then you just don't have a clue what you are talking about.
- Hikikomori 1y ago
  And most people did use masks. We did not do as good as our neighbours though.
- gus_massa 1y ago
  Here in Buenos Aires we had a complete lockdown for 6 months, I coud only go walking only up to 1/4 mile and only to buy food. For longer trips I needed a writen authorization. Most people used mask, even in the street, nobody complained, but a few morons used it in the chin that is not very effective. Anyway, we got more death per million than Sweden.
aeve890 1y ago
>that culture >Limiting Factor I see what you did here.
- grues-dinner 1y ago
  I Blame Your Mother
Ekaros 1y ago
Yeah. Entirely failed to lock up and isolate the vulnerable for their own good. Which really would have been the altruistic choice. If we are not even ready and capable to do the most obvious and reasonable. How can we expect anything better?
rurban 1y ago
That's why the community has to survive 80 years in the Antarctica without any contact, and only the surving generation may start the travel then. 2400 people on the ship, plus 20% who will not make it. Or maybe 90%?
gaws 1y ago
> I am increasingly certain that culture is by far the biggest limiting factor We're never leaving because "woke." /s

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> We couldn't even reliably get people to put a piece of fabric over their face Rural Americans couldn’t. But I don’t see anyone proposing we put high school dropouts and polio patients in space. China, India and Japan managed to pass that test just fine. I imagine one of the former two will be the first to colonise deep space.

kryogen1c 1y ago
>> kill their relatives > Rural Americans > high school dropouts Lol HN you really are too much sometimes. Covid went really well in all the intellectual bastions of liberal democracy right? NYC, SF? California famously no downsides from their policy choices at all. And then to top it off, you compare response to China - the government that lied through it's teeth about covid from the beginning, jailed journalists and destroyed evidence. Unreal
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  Oh, nobody managed Covid well. The question was capacity to sacrifice for the common good. New York is a bad example to call out since it was one of the first places to get hit, locked down hard after a delay, and yet came out with lower per-capita deaths and a stronger economy than most red states. (Speaking as someone who lives in one of the reddest states in the union.) > jailed journalists and destroyed evidence Not sure we can call anyone out on this anymore.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    The question is not "Would a randomly selected demographic be a good pool for this mission" The question is "Could we create a cadre of 400 highly effective people that could sustain a colony on a spaceship. I argue the answer to the first is "No" for any demographic but the answer to the second is a clear "Yes".
    - judahmeek 1y ago
      > The question is "Could we create a cadre of 400 highly effective people that could sustain a colony on a spaceship?" For a generational ship, the question becomes even more complex because you would have to build a culture of expertise that can sustain itself over multiple generations.
    - icetank 1y ago
      Maybe the issue is that people assume that a randomly selected population would consist of US citizens. What if you picked Japanese? They did well during covid. An they are know for having a strong communal responsibility. Maybe the average US citizen is just a bad choice for a generation ship? Then again given the choice between sending foreign citizen's or sending no generation ship would probably result in no generation ship bring launched.
      - m4rtink 1y ago
        People from latin america might be a good match - last time the fleet of generation ships not only reached the destination in sufficient number, but one of them even ahead of schedule[0]! [0] https://revelationspace.fandom.com/wiki/Sky_Haussmann https://revelationspace.fandom.com/wiki/Sky_Haussmann
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    > The question was capacity to sacrifice for the common good. COVID didn't test for capacity to sacrifice for the common good. Sacrifice is voluntary. It tested for capacity to submit to authoritarian control for the common good.
jval43 1y ago
Urban Europeans had just as much trouble (speaking as one).
- varjag 1y ago
  "Europeans" is kinda broad brush. Norwegians around me had little trouble following the safety instructions. Still not sold though that the cohesion in an small, resource constrained, artificial community can hold over a few generations. Huge risks of it degrading into some cult/dictatorship.
  - icetank 1y ago
    I don't see why smaller societies should not be able to thrive. My grandparents said once that back in the day you could identify what rural village someone was from by their accent. Meaning populations inside of villages changed very little. And most of these villages did just fine with populations as low as 200.
    - rurban 1y ago
      Maybe that's why they seperate the ship into 5 indendent areas, each 480 people. So that at least one culture will survive for 400 years.
    - varjag 1y ago
      They all existed within the greater (regional, national) social context. There still was freedom of movement even if at much greater cost. There were avenues for delinquents and outcasts to seek fortunes in the cities or even overseas. There was no overarching purpose imposed on their life other than the religion. This is not to say that generation ship societies are doomed to fail but chances are decent.
    - random_is_rando 1y ago
      The real question is what stops them from declaring independence and cutting ties with Earth. Especially after generations of people? They'd need strong ... propaganda, for lack of a better word.
munificent 1y ago
> Rural Americans couldn’t. One of the primary causes of our cultural disfunction is our seemingly intrinsic compulsion to separate ourselves into groups of Us and Them, and have no limit to the amount of disparaging, scorn, and dehumanization we are willing to dump onto Them.

mighmi 1y ago

Sweden did not have a mask mandate and did very well.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
teiferer 1y ago
Are you opining from the outside or did you live here during the pandemic? If you entered a bus or any public space during that time, most people were wearing masks. And bus schedules were heavily adjusted to decrease density of people. Society did a lot to fight the virus, just not based on mandates but based on getting people to voluntarily do what was necessary because they in majority used common sense and an undertanding of what's the danger and what is needed. Similar to what an intergenerational space ship would need. So, if your argument is "you can solve big problems without coersion" then I'm with you. You need a high trust society. Though if your argument is "the mask stuff was just BS, just look at Sweden, they didn't use any and turned out well" then you just don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Hikikomori 1y ago
And most people did use masks. We did not do as good as our neighbours though.
gus_massa 1y ago
Here in Buenos Aires we had a complete lockdown for 6 months, I coud only go walking only up to 1/4 mile and only to buy food. For longer trips I needed a writen authorization. Most people used mask, even in the street, nobody complained, but a few morons used it in the chin that is not very effective. Anyway, we got more death per million than Sweden.

aeve890 1y ago

>that culture >Limiting Factor I see what you did here.

grues-dinner 1y ago
I Blame Your Mother

Ekaros 1y ago

Yeah. Entirely failed to lock up and isolate the vulnerable for their own good. Which really would have been the altruistic choice. If we are not even ready and capable to do the most obvious and reasonable. How can we expect anything better?

rurban 1y ago

That's why the community has to survive 80 years in the Antarctica without any contact, and only the surving generation may start the travel then. 2400 people on the ship, plus 20% who will not make it. Or maybe 90%?

gaws 1y ago

> I am increasingly certain that culture is by far the biggest limiting factor We're never leaving because "woke." /s