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> The tough reality is that a lot of people on the street right now are happy enough living on the street. Are they? Happy enough for what, exactly?

by watwut 1y ago

danaris 1y ago
"Happy enough" not to be willing to give up their autonomy and jump through a whole bunch of bullshit hoops to get housing. "Happy enough" that housing that excludes queer people, men (or people who look like men), people who need to not have their names be public information because they're hiding from abusive prior partners/parents, pets, people who are currently addicted to drugs (and thus cannot realistically never have drugs around), or any of a host of other restrictions, will not be something they consider an option. (Note that these restrictions are a) from separate sources, not all on the same thing, and b) things I've heard about in the context of shelters, rather than low-income housing; however, it would not surprise me in the least if similar restrictions were placed on various programs to help house the homeless.)
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Also if you have work that doesn't line up exactly with the shelters opening or close, or you want to not be abused or assaulted at the shelter, or... There are cases where the street is safer or has more autonomy, like you say. Solutions need to offer similar things, so privacy, the ability to indulge in some little pleasures, to come and go at your own schedule are basic table stakes.
  - danaris 1y ago
    Right. A housing unit that lets you stay there indefinitely, for free, in an apartment that you can have to yourself—but doesn't allow alcohol, or is sex-segregated, or where you're mandated to come out and work for a specified period every day, or even that gets regularly searched for drug paraphernalia, is not going to work for a lot of people. Basically, housing for people like this needs to have, if anything, fewer restrictions on its use than housing for the general public. Give them the space to fuck up and to heal at their own pace, and not have to worry that those very normal kinds of problems will leave them worse off than before (eg, because if you're kicked out, your stuff gets confiscated—or even just because with these projects in place, there's less of a community of homeless people to support each other for those who still don't "fit").
legitster 1y ago
Tent living is something like the middle class of homelessness. You have a private space, you can can acquire things, you can choose where you live and who you live around, and you don't have to jump through hoops to maintain your status. Even for the "long-term" housing programs you have a lot of rules you have to follow and can easily fall out if you commit a minor crime. If you realize that our human ancestors lived in hovels and tents for thousands and thousands of years, it's not too hard to believe that modern humans can adapt back to similar living conditions.
- sitkack 1y ago
  > For the homeless, tent living is something like middle class. WTF are you even talking about.
  - legitster 1y ago
    If you ever work with the homeless, it's a common trope. People seek out tent camping as a form of long-term security. There's a great Conversations with Tyler where he interviews a prominent homeless person in the DC era and one of the topics he brings up is specifically stratification amongst these groups: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-grate/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-gr...
  - hackable_sand 1y ago
    They are talking a lot of bullshit
- Levitz 1y ago
  So your point is that some homeless (surely we agree it's not all homeless people) would rather live in a tent free from restrictions bound to housing programs than to take part in those housing programs and submit themselves to the restrictions?
  - legitster 1y ago
    I'm absolutely not arguing that people enjoy being homeless, but life is full of tradeoffs and for enough Americans homelessness beats some of the alternatives.
mrgoldenbrown 1y ago
I doubt they are happy but many prefer the street to the current crappy shelter options we offer in the US.

> The tough reality is that a lot of people on the street right now are happy enough living on the street. Are they? Happy enough for what, exactly?

by watwut 1y ago

> The tough reality is that a lot of people on the street right now are happy enough living on the street. Are they? Happy enough for what, exactly?

danaris 1y ago

"Happy enough" not to be willing to give up their autonomy and jump through a whole bunch of bullshit hoops to get housing. "Happy enough" that housing that excludes queer people, men (or people who look like men), people who need to not have their names be public information because they're hiding from abusive prior partners/parents, pets, people who are currently addicted to drugs (and thus cannot realistically never have drugs around), or any of a host of other restrictions, will not be something they consider an option. (Note that these restrictions are a) from separate sources, not all on the same thing, and b) things I've heard about in the context of shelters, rather than low-income housing; however, it would not surprise me in the least if similar restrictions were placed on various programs to help house the homeless.)

nemomarx 1y ago
Also if you have work that doesn't line up exactly with the shelters opening or close, or you want to not be abused or assaulted at the shelter, or... There are cases where the street is safer or has more autonomy, like you say. Solutions need to offer similar things, so privacy, the ability to indulge in some little pleasures, to come and go at your own schedule are basic table stakes.
- danaris 1y ago
  Right. A housing unit that lets you stay there indefinitely, for free, in an apartment that you can have to yourself—but doesn't allow alcohol, or is sex-segregated, or where you're mandated to come out and work for a specified period every day, or even that gets regularly searched for drug paraphernalia, is not going to work for a lot of people. Basically, housing for people like this needs to have, if anything, fewer restrictions on its use than housing for the general public. Give them the space to fuck up and to heal at their own pace, and not have to worry that those very normal kinds of problems will leave them worse off than before (eg, because if you're kicked out, your stuff gets confiscated—or even just because with these projects in place, there's less of a community of homeless people to support each other for those who still don't "fit").

legitster 1y ago

Tent living is something like the middle class of homelessness. You have a private space, you can can acquire things, you can choose where you live and who you live around, and you don't have to jump through hoops to maintain your status. Even for the "long-term" housing programs you have a lot of rules you have to follow and can easily fall out if you commit a minor crime. If you realize that our human ancestors lived in hovels and tents for thousands and thousands of years, it's not too hard to believe that modern humans can adapt back to similar living conditions.

sitkack 1y ago
> For the homeless, tent living is something like middle class. WTF are you even talking about.
- legitster 1y ago
  If you ever work with the homeless, it's a common trope. People seek out tent camping as a form of long-term security. There's a great Conversations with Tyler where he interviews a prominent homeless person in the DC era and one of the topics he brings up is specifically stratification amongst these groups: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-grate/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-gr...
- hackable_sand 1y ago
  They are talking a lot of bullshit
Levitz 1y ago
So your point is that some homeless (surely we agree it's not all homeless people) would rather live in a tent free from restrictions bound to housing programs than to take part in those housing programs and submit themselves to the restrictions?
- legitster 1y ago
  I'm absolutely not arguing that people enjoy being homeless, but life is full of tradeoffs and for enough Americans homelessness beats some of the alternatives.

mrgoldenbrown 1y ago

I doubt they are happy but many prefer the street to the current crappy shelter options we offer in the US.