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It is strange that showing ID to vote is controversial in the US and that providing basic ID to citizens for free to allow them to vote is a problem that seems

It is strange that showing ID to vote is controversial in the US and that providing basic ID to citizens for free to allow them to vote is a problem that seems difficult to solve (or want to solve). My anecdote: I am an EU citizen living in another EU country. As such, I am permitted to vote in local and European elections. When I moved to my current village I registered with the local town hall online. I sent a scan of my national ID card (for my home country) and they registered me to vote for the elections I’m eligible to vote for. Ahead of the elections, they post me a physical election card telling me where to vote (always the same place in the village), and on the day I take my card and ID and vote. It’s basically frictionless. It’s no problem to register online with a foreign ID document, and it’s no problem to present a foreign ID card alongside my election card on the day when I vote. If I turned up to vote without my election card or my ID, I would be refused the chance to vote. That makes sense to me and showing ID to vote is not questioned by anyone.

buerkle 1y ago
Showing ID to vote wouldn't be controversial in the US if states made it easy to obtain a valid ID for the purpose. But states routinely use it as a backdoor mechanism to prevent people from voting.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  To add to this, there’s friction from the citizen side of things with a relatively high level of distrust in government that’s been present for decades. If you go out deep enough into the boonies for instance you can probably find people who still don’t have government ID of any type despite being native born and prefer to keep it that way.
  - crooked-v 1y ago
    Also see the Amish, who explicitly avoid photo IDs for religious reasons, generally substituting notarized statements for them for business purposes.
- antonymoose 1y ago
  In my state I bring two forms of ID and a couple of bills to the DMV and I’m issued a same-day license? How does that compare to a notoriously unfriendly nation like Germany? In any case, my understanding is virtually any nation in Central and South America requires identification to vote. If the third-world poverty stricken nations make it work there is no reason the rich United States cannot.
  - erghjunk 1y ago
    assuming that you're talking about a driver's license, you're leaving out the important steps of passing driving tests and, more importantly, having a car.
    - antonymoose 1y ago
      My state (as do most?) offer a state issued photo ID at the DMV, none of this driving nonsense is required.
      - Jtsummers 1y ago
        In GA, to pick on the state I was living in when they started instituting these rules, they cut DMV locations at the same time as they started adding the ID requirements (or trying to, I moved and don't know the current status of their rules). Yes, the state ID was free, but their actions at the same time, intended or not, made it harder for people to get the free ID.
    - ClarityJones 1y ago
      Oh, are there states that don't issue IDs? In mine you can skip that stuff and just get the ID.
  - arp242 1y ago
    You can't use your driving license under the proposed SAVE act, as it's not proof of citizenship. Only a few states offer "extended" driving licenses, which do, but also need to be requested separately in most (or all?) states that offer them IIRC. For every other state: you will have to use a passport, birth certificate, or a separate state ID card.
- blindriver 1y ago
  [flagged]
- frakt0x90 1y ago
  There's an excellent documentary by Channel 5 (formerly All Gas No Brakes) where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGrKJofDaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGrKJofDaw
  - gruez 1y ago
    >where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. That seems like the worst case scenario though? I don't think homeless people should be disenfranchised, but at the same time it's unfair to pretend the typical experience of getting a voter id resembles whatever the TV show is depicting either.
    - pogue 1y ago
      It can be incredibly difficult and time consuming to get a birth certificate if you have lost yours. If you work full time, you'd have to take off for an unknown time period (typically multiple hours) to stand in line at a court or other facility that provides them. In some cases, people just don't have the option to take that time off and/or lack vehicle access to get there. Then there's a fee to get a copy, lots of forms you and your relatives have to sign & get notarized. Finally, if you're successful, then you get the opportunity to make an appointment to wait at line at a DMV location. In Texas, they have severely limited hours since COVID. I think it's become significantly worse since COVID & REAL ID requirements, but it's always been a Kafkaesque nightmare to try & get the proof of who you legally are. And, not to mention, it's a paper form that you can't just pull up digitally, so if you don't take precautions, it's easy to misplace.
      - assword 1y ago
        Oh man the birth certificate thing is ridiculous. I had to get a new Id from scratch recently and it was the most painful process The state I was born in decided to outsource the handling of birth certificates to some shit tier consulting firm. In order to get my birth certificate shipped to me, I would have to wait over six months simply to process my request (ostensibly due to Covid, but this was 2023). It would have been quicker for me to walk hundreds of miles and get it in person. Thankfully I lucked out and found an old one. Just a reminder that this is the shit politicians mean when they talk about privatizing government services.
- simonsarris 1y ago
  In what state is getting an ID difficult?
hypeatei 1y ago
> It’s basically frictionless. You're assuming the theoretical US system would be the same and not be made arbitrarily complex by Republicans.
- ncr100 1y ago
  Which, to reinforce the point, is the actual situation here in America. All the support systems that help ID cards be fairly distributed to citizens are under-documented for the populace and under-supported by the administration. It's ripe for the authoritarian takeover that is currently underway here.
Sniffnoy 1y ago
> It is strange that showing ID to vote is controversial in the US and that providing basic ID to citizens for free to allow them to vote is a problem that seems difficult to solve (or want to solve). One of the blockers to a national ID system in the US, that would result in voter ID no longer posing any substantive obstacle to voting, has been anti-government paranoia; but another, if you're not aware, has been fundamentalist Christianity and its eschatology -- fundamentalist Christians may associate the idea of a national ID with the "mark of the beast". The amusing thing here of course is that while Trump's attempt to unilaterally impose ID rules is illegal, if it were successful, it would likely be an own goal. Formerly, the sort of person who is likely to not have any sort of ID -- someone disconnected from any systems that would require it -- was more likely to vote Democratic than Republican, but in recent years, this has reversed. While I can't cheer for breaking election laws (or for a court ruling that this is in fact legal, because it shouldn't be considered so), it would at least be amusing if this backfired.
- specialist 1y ago
  > associate the idea of a national ID with the "mark of the beast" This was absolutely true during the 2000s. The huge irony is that having a national ID (central authenticator issuing globally unique identifiers) is the only way to protect PII, at the field level, at rest. Per the Translucent Database strategy. Which I won't repeat here. Unless the peanut gallery develops a genuine interest. In other words, not having Real ID (or equiv) enables our panoptic surveillance capitalistic dystopia.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    > This was absolutely true during the 2000s. There was plenty of it in the lead-up to 2000, too. I had a family member who in the late 90s got swept up in some of the religious internet mania surrounding the mark that was tying it to the Y2K bug and all sorts of other things. It remains some of the most bonkers stuff I’ve ever seen, even in the modern era of heightened internet craziness.
nerdponx 1y ago
The kind of actual voter fraud that ID requirements would prevent is extremely rare. There are better ways to rig elections than hiring thousands of people to physically show up at different polling centers and vote several times under different names. Even disregarding the fact that voter ID laws are (and historically have been) widely abused to disenfranchise specific groups in the USA, what do you actually gain by requiring ID?
- celeritascelery 1y ago
  > what do you actually gain by requiring ID? Preventing non-citizens from voting. Some counties in the US have almost half of the population who are non-citizens. It's great that we have so many people wanting to come to the states, but they can't vote until they become citizens. This is not a controversial issue anywhere except in the US.
  - nerdponx 1y ago
    https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/noncitizen-voting-us-elections https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/noncitizen-voting-us... > There is no evidence that unauthorized immigrants, green-card holders, or immigrants on temporary visas are voting in significant numbers, despite some claims that “millions” of noncitizens are voting in U.S. elections. In fact, audits by election officials and numerous studies reflect that voter fraud by noncitizens is extremely rare. > A [Heritage Foundation database](https://electionfraud.heritage.org/search?combine=citizenship&state=All&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=0 https://electionfraud.heritage.org/search?combine=citizenshi...) of election fraud cases identified just 23 instances of noncitizen voting between 2003 and 2022.
    - celeritascelery 1y ago
      It’s great that those organizations say it’s uncommon. But this shouldn’t even be an issue. It doesn’t take many votes to tip a close election. Requiring ID like every other country is the common sense thing to do. And it helps build confidence in the election process without the need for organizations to try and demonstrate that the election was legitimate after the fact.

buerkle 1y ago

Showing ID to vote wouldn't be controversial in the US if states made it easy to obtain a valid ID for the purpose. But states routinely use it as a backdoor mechanism to prevent people from voting.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago
To add to this, there’s friction from the citizen side of things with a relatively high level of distrust in government that’s been present for decades. If you go out deep enough into the boonies for instance you can probably find people who still don’t have government ID of any type despite being native born and prefer to keep it that way.
- crooked-v 1y ago
  Also see the Amish, who explicitly avoid photo IDs for religious reasons, generally substituting notarized statements for them for business purposes.
antonymoose 1y ago
In my state I bring two forms of ID and a couple of bills to the DMV and I’m issued a same-day license? How does that compare to a notoriously unfriendly nation like Germany? In any case, my understanding is virtually any nation in Central and South America requires identification to vote. If the third-world poverty stricken nations make it work there is no reason the rich United States cannot.
- erghjunk 1y ago
  assuming that you're talking about a driver's license, you're leaving out the important steps of passing driving tests and, more importantly, having a car.
  - antonymoose 1y ago
    My state (as do most?) offer a state issued photo ID at the DMV, none of this driving nonsense is required.
    - Jtsummers 1y ago
      In GA, to pick on the state I was living in when they started instituting these rules, they cut DMV locations at the same time as they started adding the ID requirements (or trying to, I moved and don't know the current status of their rules). Yes, the state ID was free, but their actions at the same time, intended or not, made it harder for people to get the free ID.
  - ClarityJones 1y ago
    Oh, are there states that don't issue IDs? In mine you can skip that stuff and just get the ID.
- arp242 1y ago
  You can't use your driving license under the proposed SAVE act, as it's not proof of citizenship. Only a few states offer "extended" driving licenses, which do, but also need to be requested separately in most (or all?) states that offer them IIRC. For every other state: you will have to use a passport, birth certificate, or a separate state ID card.
blindriver 1y ago
[flagged]
frakt0x90 1y ago
There's an excellent documentary by Channel 5 (formerly All Gas No Brakes) where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGrKJofDaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGrKJofDaw
- gruez 1y ago
  >where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. That seems like the worst case scenario though? I don't think homeless people should be disenfranchised, but at the same time it's unfair to pretend the typical experience of getting a voter id resembles whatever the TV show is depicting either.
  - pogue 1y ago
    It can be incredibly difficult and time consuming to get a birth certificate if you have lost yours. If you work full time, you'd have to take off for an unknown time period (typically multiple hours) to stand in line at a court or other facility that provides them. In some cases, people just don't have the option to take that time off and/or lack vehicle access to get there. Then there's a fee to get a copy, lots of forms you and your relatives have to sign & get notarized. Finally, if you're successful, then you get the opportunity to make an appointment to wait at line at a DMV location. In Texas, they have severely limited hours since COVID. I think it's become significantly worse since COVID & REAL ID requirements, but it's always been a Kafkaesque nightmare to try & get the proof of who you legally are. And, not to mention, it's a paper form that you can't just pull up digitally, so if you don't take precautions, it's easy to misplace.
    - assword 1y ago
      Oh man the birth certificate thing is ridiculous. I had to get a new Id from scratch recently and it was the most painful process The state I was born in decided to outsource the handling of birth certificates to some shit tier consulting firm. In order to get my birth certificate shipped to me, I would have to wait over six months simply to process my request (ostensibly due to Covid, but this was 2023). It would have been quicker for me to walk hundreds of miles and get it in person. Thankfully I lucked out and found an old one. Just a reminder that this is the shit politicians mean when they talk about privatizing government services.
simonsarris 1y ago
In what state is getting an ID difficult?

hypeatei 1y ago

> It’s basically frictionless. You're assuming the theoretical US system would be the same and not be made arbitrarily complex by Republicans.

ncr100 1y ago
Which, to reinforce the point, is the actual situation here in America. All the support systems that help ID cards be fairly distributed to citizens are under-documented for the populace and under-supported by the administration. It's ripe for the authoritarian takeover that is currently underway here.

Sniffnoy 1y ago

> It is strange that showing ID to vote is controversial in the US and that providing basic ID to citizens for free to allow them to vote is a problem that seems difficult to solve (or want to solve). One of the blockers to a national ID system in the US, that would result in voter ID no longer posing any substantive obstacle to voting, has been anti-government paranoia; but another, if you're not aware, has been fundamentalist Christianity and its eschatology -- fundamentalist Christians may associate the idea of a national ID with the "mark of the beast". The amusing thing here of course is that while Trump's attempt to unilaterally impose ID rules is illegal, if it were successful, it would likely be an own goal. Formerly, the sort of person who is likely to not have any sort of ID -- someone disconnected from any systems that would require it -- was more likely to vote Democratic than Republican, but in recent years, this has reversed. While I can't cheer for breaking election laws (or for a court ruling that this is in fact legal, because it shouldn't be considered so), it would at least be amusing if this backfired.

specialist 1y ago
> associate the idea of a national ID with the "mark of the beast" This was absolutely true during the 2000s. The huge irony is that having a national ID (central authenticator issuing globally unique identifiers) is the only way to protect PII, at the field level, at rest. Per the Translucent Database strategy. Which I won't repeat here. Unless the peanut gallery develops a genuine interest. In other words, not having Real ID (or equiv) enables our panoptic surveillance capitalistic dystopia.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  > This was absolutely true during the 2000s. There was plenty of it in the lead-up to 2000, too. I had a family member who in the late 90s got swept up in some of the religious internet mania surrounding the mark that was tying it to the Y2K bug and all sorts of other things. It remains some of the most bonkers stuff I’ve ever seen, even in the modern era of heightened internet craziness.

nerdponx 1y ago

The kind of actual voter fraud that ID requirements would prevent is extremely rare. There are better ways to rig elections than hiring thousands of people to physically show up at different polling centers and vote several times under different names. Even disregarding the fact that voter ID laws are (and historically have been) widely abused to disenfranchise specific groups in the USA, what do you actually gain by requiring ID?

celeritascelery 1y ago
> what do you actually gain by requiring ID? Preventing non-citizens from voting. Some counties in the US have almost half of the population who are non-citizens. It's great that we have so many people wanting to come to the states, but they can't vote until they become citizens. This is not a controversial issue anywhere except in the US.
- nerdponx 1y ago
  https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/noncitizen-voting-us-elections https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/noncitizen-voting-us... > There is no evidence that unauthorized immigrants, green-card holders, or immigrants on temporary visas are voting in significant numbers, despite some claims that “millions” of noncitizens are voting in U.S. elections. In fact, audits by election officials and numerous studies reflect that voter fraud by noncitizens is extremely rare. > A [Heritage Foundation database](https://electionfraud.heritage.org/search?combine=citizenship&state=All&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=0 https://electionfraud.heritage.org/search?combine=citizenshi...) of election fraud cases identified just 23 instances of noncitizen voting between 2003 and 2022.
  - celeritascelery 1y ago
    It’s great that those organizations say it’s uncommon. But this shouldn’t even be an issue. It doesn’t take many votes to tip a close election. Requiring ID like every other country is the common sense thing to do. And it helps build confidence in the election process without the need for organizations to try and demonstrate that the election was legitimate after the fact.