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The official website has an interesting footer > As a community, we want to be friendly too. People from around the world, of all backgrounds, genders, and exp

The official website has an interesting footer > As a community, we want to be friendly too. People from around the world, of all backgrounds, genders, and experience levels are welcome and respected equally. See our community code of conduct for more. Black lives matter. Trans rights are human rights. No nazi bullsh*t. On one hand I applaud that their community standards are inclusive, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be that blatantly ideological from the get go. It's just another programming language, not a political platform.

SwiftyBug 1y ago
The Gleam community has been the best, most welcoming community I've ever seen on the internet. And I've been a around for a while. I attribute this in part to their clear stance.
- steve_adams_86 1y ago
  I was welcomed too, and strongly encouraged to contribute. It was really nice. Though the signals might appear abrasive to some, it doesn't represent an abrasive group of people at all.
  - Alupis 1y ago
    Joining their Discord and getting greeted by the language creator himself within a few minutes was pretty cool. Most other languages, their creators/maintainers seem so unapproachable and distant. You can talk directly with the core team on there, ask questions, etc. Louis really has built a pretty fun community around Gleam.
  - batisteo 1y ago
    The good thing is, you don't have to be tolerant with the intolerant. And that's exactly what they are advertising. It let the nice people flow in, as you experienced.
steve_adams_86 1y ago
I used to be on the fence with this, finding the ideology-forward attitude fairly abrasive. I've since decided that while I don't love it, I see the perceived necessity of it that some people have. I enjoy the privilege of living somewhere and being a person who no one cares to cause problems for. Some people don't have that experience, and are targeted routinely and unfairly. I see it like they put up these barriers and deterrences because they need to, not just that they want to. People who support them participate in that endeavour because it matters enough. For guys like me, it seems like a needless distraction from what matters. Unless I consider living a life in which there are people who don't want me to exist, or something. Then yeah, I might throw up a few "please fuck off" signs, I don't know.
- AnEro 1y ago
  I used to think it was kinda pander-y, but then after participating in some of these communities it was just obnoxious when it wasn't stated, the cultural wedge between people. Where randomly there was drama from someone posting an unrelated yet offensive meme/joke, then it was a huge discussion on if it was ban worthy, if it was okay to joke about, or xyz. When really I just wanted to be nerdy with others.
  - steve_adams_86 1y ago
    I get that. You can put up the signs, but it doesn't need to be a regular, loud topic in the community. In fact, the signs should serve to prevent the need to discuss it in the community and make moderation cleaner and easier.
    - ModernMech 1y ago
      I like what Rust does: they make the LGBTQ+ flag the background of the discord icon. Nuff said.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  I dunno, it seems like everyone should have learned lessons from the sordid scala and node drama incidents, but instead they're just forgotten. Don't make in groups and out groups. Just have a "be nice" rule and leave it at that.
lpil 1y ago
> It shouldn't be that blatantly ideological from the get go. It's just another programming language, not a political platform. It's first and foremost a community, and it's important for communities to have clear a code of conduct and moderation of that code. There are lots of languages without community, Gleam is not one of those.
- giraffe_lady 1y ago
  Gleam is an incredible technical achievement and the community an amazing social one. You should be proud of both, thank you for your clear vision and commitment on this issue despite so much consistent external pushback.
  - lpil 1y ago
    Thank you, you are very kind. I am extremely proud of the community, they are wonderful lot.
tuttigachimuchi 1y ago
Programming languages aren’t math—they are cultural products that have the right to express their values and objectives
turnsout 1y ago
Being anti-nazi is not ideological.
- ribelo 1y ago
  Of course it is. You can't be against anything without an idea, without it you wouldn't be opposed, you'd just not give a shit. Not caring isn't ideological just like not believing in god isn't, but being anti-god? That's pure ideology.
  - timeon 1y ago
    Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism.
    - Alupis 1y ago
      > Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism. This is some "critical theory" nonsense. The real world isn't divided into two camps, "those actively for" and "those actively against". You can, and should, just go about your life. You'll live a happier, more mentally-healthy life by just ignoring the noise and not getting pulled into some sort of "if you're not with us, you're against us" thing. Gleam is a language, and just like all languages - be it English, Spanish, C++, Python, musical notes, and more - both agreeable and disagreeable people will use it. It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language. There's no point in even trying - all you succeed in doing is giving yourself mental grief, anxiety and hardship. Just do your thing...
      - zdragnar 1y ago
        But how will you control people if you haven't put them in little boxes first?
      - turnsout 1y ago
        I think it's valuable for the leaders of a community to make it clear what kind of a community they're trying to build. If you think being anti-Nazi is like, "woke nonsense," then you know that the Gleam community is not going to be for you. Does that prevent a Nazi from using Gleam? No. But the actual objective is to set the tone.
AnEro 1y ago
> It's just another programming language, not a political platform Politics is baked into everything we do, like the lack of any political messaging is still a political message. With this approach, it weeds out those that don't align with the core community which is ideal for an organization that only thrives with volunteer involvement.
akkad33 1y ago
But this is not very relevant to the release announcement?
- buzzerbetrayed 1y ago
  When you put distracting things on your homepage, don't be surprised when they're distracting
  - akkad33 1y ago
    I didn't find it distracting. Why you?
ModernMech 1y ago
Trans people are over represented in compilers communities. You don’t get programming languages without the hard work of people in the trans community. In a world where they are constantly under attack, it’s important to make them feel safe and welcome. Trans people are welcome in our dev communities and that needs to be explicitly stated these days, because trans inclusion is not implied in our bigoted society.
ForceBru 1y ago
> Shouldn't be that blatantly ideological, it's not a political platform Yeah! This always stands out like a sore thumb on the website. Like _yeah_, all of it should go without saying! You're a freely available programming language, of course everyone can use it! Of course everyone is welcome! Does a hammer care about your gender or race? No, anyone can use it! It's also very weird and a little childish to specifically include "no nazi bullshit". Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer? Why does a programming language feel the need to say this? Are prominent nazis actively showing interest in Gleam and trying to promote their "bullshit" with it? Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely downplaying the problem with the nazis. "Bullshit" is usually something mildly inconvenient, somewhat unfair, kinda infuriating, but it usually doesn't threaten anybody and doesn't fuel world wars.
- atomfinger 1y ago
  > Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer? Unfortunately, not in this day and age. > Why does a programming language feel the need to say this? It's less about "the language saying it" and more about the standards of the community that surrounds the language. For a language to thrive, it needs a community of people contributing to it. If it doesn't, it'll eventually die unused. As such, there's more than "just the language"; it is also a community-building effort. > Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely... IMHO, you're reading too much into the word "bullshit".
- samdoesnothing 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - giraffe_lady 1y ago
    HN itself has quite a lot of "nazi bullshit." You don't usually, regularly see people being virulent about it but people frequently endorse policies that would absolutely have fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. Things like race science and eliminationist policies against the homeless, anti-immigration stances, homo- and transphobia are particularly popular. People here are normally "polite" about it and we seem to all have decided that means it doesn't count. It does count.
arrowsmith 1y ago
I've never used Gleam and really don't care either way about the creator's politics, but it would be nice to see Gleam hit the HN front page for once without this same tedious conversation getting repeated every time. Isn't there something more interesting we can talk about?
alain_gilbert 1y ago
The most ironic thing is that if you search for "nazi programming language" you'll find gleam.
terminatornet 1y ago
Counterpoint: it's actually good to be vocally against nazi bullshit

SwiftyBug 1y ago

The Gleam community has been the best, most welcoming community I've ever seen on the internet. And I've been a around for a while. I attribute this in part to their clear stance.

steve_adams_86 1y ago
I was welcomed too, and strongly encouraged to contribute. It was really nice. Though the signals might appear abrasive to some, it doesn't represent an abrasive group of people at all.
- Alupis 1y ago
  Joining their Discord and getting greeted by the language creator himself within a few minutes was pretty cool. Most other languages, their creators/maintainers seem so unapproachable and distant. You can talk directly with the core team on there, ask questions, etc. Louis really has built a pretty fun community around Gleam.
- batisteo 1y ago
  The good thing is, you don't have to be tolerant with the intolerant. And that's exactly what they are advertising. It let the nice people flow in, as you experienced.

steve_adams_86 1y ago

I used to be on the fence with this, finding the ideology-forward attitude fairly abrasive. I've since decided that while I don't love it, I see the perceived necessity of it that some people have. I enjoy the privilege of living somewhere and being a person who no one cares to cause problems for. Some people don't have that experience, and are targeted routinely and unfairly. I see it like they put up these barriers and deterrences because they need to, not just that they want to. People who support them participate in that endeavour because it matters enough. For guys like me, it seems like a needless distraction from what matters. Unless I consider living a life in which there are people who don't want me to exist, or something. Then yeah, I might throw up a few "please fuck off" signs, I don't know.

AnEro 1y ago
I used to think it was kinda pander-y, but then after participating in some of these communities it was just obnoxious when it wasn't stated, the cultural wedge between people. Where randomly there was drama from someone posting an unrelated yet offensive meme/joke, then it was a huge discussion on if it was ban worthy, if it was okay to joke about, or xyz. When really I just wanted to be nerdy with others.
- steve_adams_86 1y ago
  I get that. You can put up the signs, but it doesn't need to be a regular, loud topic in the community. In fact, the signs should serve to prevent the need to discuss it in the community and make moderation cleaner and easier.
  - ModernMech 1y ago
    I like what Rust does: they make the LGBTQ+ flag the background of the discord icon. Nuff said.
zdragnar 1y ago
I dunno, it seems like everyone should have learned lessons from the sordid scala and node drama incidents, but instead they're just forgotten. Don't make in groups and out groups. Just have a "be nice" rule and leave it at that.

lpil 1y ago

> It shouldn't be that blatantly ideological from the get go. It's just another programming language, not a political platform. It's first and foremost a community, and it's important for communities to have clear a code of conduct and moderation of that code. There are lots of languages without community, Gleam is not one of those.

giraffe_lady 1y ago
Gleam is an incredible technical achievement and the community an amazing social one. You should be proud of both, thank you for your clear vision and commitment on this issue despite so much consistent external pushback.
- lpil 1y ago
  Thank you, you are very kind. I am extremely proud of the community, they are wonderful lot.

tuttigachimuchi 1y ago

Programming languages aren’t math—they are cultural products that have the right to express their values and objectives

turnsout 1y ago

Being anti-nazi is not ideological.

ribelo 1y ago
Of course it is. You can't be against anything without an idea, without it you wouldn't be opposed, you'd just not give a shit. Not caring isn't ideological just like not believing in god isn't, but being anti-god? That's pure ideology.
- timeon 1y ago
  Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism.
  - Alupis 1y ago
    > Sure but 'not giving a shit' means accepting Nazism. This is some "critical theory" nonsense. The real world isn't divided into two camps, "those actively for" and "those actively against". You can, and should, just go about your life. You'll live a happier, more mentally-healthy life by just ignoring the noise and not getting pulled into some sort of "if you're not with us, you're against us" thing. Gleam is a language, and just like all languages - be it English, Spanish, C++, Python, musical notes, and more - both agreeable and disagreeable people will use it. It's impossible to prevent people who you disagree with from using a language. There's no point in even trying - all you succeed in doing is giving yourself mental grief, anxiety and hardship. Just do your thing...
    - zdragnar 1y ago
      But how will you control people if you haven't put them in little boxes first?
    - turnsout 1y ago
      I think it's valuable for the leaders of a community to make it clear what kind of a community they're trying to build. If you think being anti-Nazi is like, "woke nonsense," then you know that the Gleam community is not going to be for you. Does that prevent a Nazi from using Gleam? No. But the actual objective is to set the tone.

AnEro 1y ago

> It's just another programming language, not a political platform Politics is baked into everything we do, like the lack of any political messaging is still a political message. With this approach, it weeds out those that don't align with the core community which is ideal for an organization that only thrives with volunteer involvement.

akkad33 1y ago

But this is not very relevant to the release announcement?

buzzerbetrayed 1y ago
When you put distracting things on your homepage, don't be surprised when they're distracting
- akkad33 1y ago
  I didn't find it distracting. Why you?

ModernMech 1y ago

Trans people are over represented in compilers communities. You don’t get programming languages without the hard work of people in the trans community. In a world where they are constantly under attack, it’s important to make them feel safe and welcome. Trans people are welcome in our dev communities and that needs to be explicitly stated these days, because trans inclusion is not implied in our bigoted society.

ForceBru 1y ago

> Shouldn't be that blatantly ideological, it's not a political platform Yeah! This always stands out like a sore thumb on the website. Like _yeah_, all of it should go without saying! You're a freely available programming language, of course everyone can use it! Of course everyone is welcome! Does a hammer care about your gender or race? No, anyone can use it! It's also very weird and a little childish to specifically include "no nazi bullshit". Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer? Why does a programming language feel the need to say this? Are prominent nazis actively showing interest in Gleam and trying to promote their "bullshit" with it? Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely downplaying the problem with the nazis. "Bullshit" is usually something mildly inconvenient, somewhat unfair, kinda infuriating, but it usually doesn't threaten anybody and doesn't fuel world wars.

atomfinger 1y ago
> Isn't it obvious that "nazi bullshit" isn't welcome? Like a no-brainer? Unfortunately, not in this day and age. > Why does a programming language feel the need to say this? It's less about "the language saying it" and more about the standards of the community that surrounds the language. For a language to thrive, it needs a community of people contributing to it. If it doesn't, it'll eventually die unused. As such, there's more than "just the language"; it is also a community-building effort. > Also, the phrase "nazi bullshit" is severely... IMHO, you're reading too much into the word "bullshit".
samdoesnothing 1y ago
[flagged]
- giraffe_lady 1y ago
  HN itself has quite a lot of "nazi bullshit." You don't usually, regularly see people being virulent about it but people frequently endorse policies that would absolutely have fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. Things like race science and eliminationist policies against the homeless, anti-immigration stances, homo- and transphobia are particularly popular. People here are normally "polite" about it and we seem to all have decided that means it doesn't count. It does count.

arrowsmith 1y ago

I've never used Gleam and really don't care either way about the creator's politics, but it would be nice to see Gleam hit the HN front page for once without this same tedious conversation getting repeated every time. Isn't there something more interesting we can talk about?

alain_gilbert 1y ago

The most ironic thing is that if you search for "nazi programming language" you'll find gleam.

terminatornet 1y ago

Counterpoint: it's actually good to be vocally against nazi bullshit