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As an auto enthusiasts I absolutely love this idea. I recently purchased a new speciality car last year (2012 Jeep SRT8) and I must of said at least 10 times du

As an auto enthusiasts I absolutely love this idea. I recently purchased a new speciality car last year (2012 Jeep SRT8) and I must of said at least 10 times during the process that I wish there was a way to circumvent the dealer. Dealing with car dealers is one of the most fundamentally broken experiences I have ever witnessed. Ready to drop $65k on a new vehicle I walk into a dealer and the first thing that happens is the sales man walks me to a desk, pulls out a piece of paper and starts asking questions and writing "whats your name?, how much do you want to spend per month?, what is credit like?, we can offer you really great financing." I had to interrupt him to explain that I just wanted to have a normal conversation first to even see if he could get the car. Turns out they couldn't. After many other slimy conversations with car dealers (and being hassled in the parking lot before I even walked in the door) I finally found a dealer that was willing to special order the car I wanted at the price I wanted. I waited 4 months for the car and 2 weeks before it was ready to arrive a the dealer they called to tell me they didn't want to sell it to me for that price anymore and they were going to sell it for $10,000 over MSRP. Long story short, I had to threaten legal action just to be able to buy the car that I had put a deposit on and waited for 4 months for. This is not the first terrible experience I have had with buying cars. The "car sales man" attitude is fundamentally wrong. About 80% of the sales people that I talked to at dealerships did not even know about the car I wanted to buy, mentioned the wrong engine or did not even know it existed. I'm waiting for the day that I can just click "buy now" online and purchase a car with Zappos-like customer support at one fair, up front, low price without all the bullshit in between.

andrewl 14y ago
Agreed. And check out Edmunds' account of what goes on behind the scenes in a car dealership by a writer who went undercover as a salesman: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-sales...
- johnyzee 14y ago
  As a sign of the disruption to come, even the sales people in that article (which is from 2001) were moaning about savvy "internet buyers" who show up at the dealership knowing exactly which car they want and how much they should be paying for it.
- ams6110 14y ago
  All this moaning about how scummy and awful dealerships are... just don't buy a car there. First and foremost buying a brand new car is a stupid idea from a financial perspective, the depreciation is greatest in the first few years. Buy a used car from a private seller, or if you feel you must have a dealer involved go to a fairly low-scum-factor place like Carmax. All that aside, I love Tesla's direct sales idea. It is disruptive, but I would think a few forward-thinking states are going to allow it (or not stand in the way of it), and people who want to buy a Tesla direct will just arrange road trips there to pick up their cars. Eventually word will spread, public demand will build, and the political barriers will fall elsewhere.
  - dsrguru 14y ago
    Buying a new car isn't necessarily a stupid idea from a financial perspective. It's true that cars depreciate in value at a ridiculous rate (which starts the moment you drive off from the dealership), but buying from a private seller means you have no way to tell if the car has been maintained properly. I've heard that a decent number of car owners don't even get oil changes on time. Is it worth saving, say, 30% up front but risking that the car will drop dead at any moment? Maybe yes and maybe no. It depends on how reliable you need the car to be.
    - mc32 14y ago
      Here's an interesting article from consumer reports which looks into the cost of car ownership. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/what-that-car-really-costs-to-own/index.htm http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/what-that-car-rea... This graphic (from CR) shows how depreciation accounts for most of the cost of owning a car, over time. http://imgur.com/wrOQu http://imgur.com/wrOQu
    - adrr 14y ago
      I bought a used car a couple months ago, paid $20 for a experian autocheck report on it and it came back with all the service records and accident history. Took it to a mechanic who ensured the car was in good condition. Since it was private party, i paid less than kbb value for it $22k compared to $28k(dealer price). Thats more than 30% savings. And if car is still under bumper to bumper warranty, you can go get a factory extended warranty for $3k and it will be the same as a certified preowned dealer car.
- james-skemp 14y ago
  Thank you. This was an extremely well written read.
thesis 14y ago
I had a miserable experience the last car purchase I attempted as well. The manager wouldn't give the sales associate any pricing unless I test drove the car. Needless to say I walked out of there. CarWoo.com saved the day for me simply because I got a price narrowed down before they even knew who I was. The only person I had to say no to after that point was the financing guy who tries to sell you tint, pin striping, and all that extra stuff. (Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with carwoo at all.)
r00fus 14y ago
Interestingly, I had a great time buying a car (minivan) with several dealers who were willing to haggle the price (within reason) and compete for my business. The winner actually drove by and we signed all the papers in my home and he took a check then left the vehicle there. Perhaps it's all about supply - in my case, they had over-supply and were willing to play ball. If you have to get a car special ordered, you're already over the barrel as far as they are concerned.
atourgates 14y ago
I expect this is obvious to most of the HN crowd, but the current answer to this problem is: Use The Internet. Most dealerships now have dedicated online sales managers that workd more like fleet sales than a traditional salesman. You email, tell them what you want, and often get pretty straightforward answers. You can do the whole thing online, and walk in with a cashiers check the day you want to pick up your vehicle. Or often have them drive it to your doorstep. It cuts through much of the bullshit of going to a dealership. This is really the only worthwhile way to buy a new car, particularly a special order. Plus, you have a paper trail.
- BryanB55 14y ago
  Very true. The best way to buy a car right now is to figure out what the cheapest is that you can get for it. Particularly if it is a new car you can generally get down to somewhere around invoice pricing. Email a handful of dealers in your area saying "I'm shopping around and I'd like this car at x price with x features, can you do it? Yes or no?" and if they say yes, print it out and take it with you to the dealer. Carwoo seems to be very helpful with this process but at the time I was purchasing my car Carwoo didn't even have an option for 2012 vehicles. After that it's just a matter of keeping your eyes open as they can sometimes try to change the price on you or some other cheap shot. The internet managers at dealers generally seem a bit easier to work with but beware of their managers that start pulling out all the tricks. I've even had a dealer finalize a price, hand me the papers to sign and they conveniently added a $2,500 fee that "they add to all purchases" When you go from working with internet companies all day to old-fashioned car dealers suddenly the convenience of straight forward "honest prices, no surprises", zappos customer service and a generally painless sales process is gone. Maybe I'm spoiled from buying too many things too easily on Amazon all day with 1 click purchasing at fair prices but even if I am, why can't car sales be this way? It even seems like less hassle for the dealership and the ethical thing to do.
- dhimes 14y ago
  You could do this with faxes even in the days before the internet was so pervasive- even getting dealerships to bid against each other in metropolitan areas.
matwood 14y ago
When I bought my first car the finance guy tried to rip me off. After catching him in his trick we finished the deal to my terms. When I left his office he told me not to come back Oddly enough that was the most patient I ever was with a car dealer. With places like carmax available it doesn't make sense to deal with any hassle.
- zzleeper 14y ago
  What was the trick?
  - Natsu 14y ago
    I don't know what the trick was for the GP post, but when I last bought one, they tried to sell me one of the car's standard features.
  - matwood 14y ago
    Bake oil changes into the loan for the next X years. Move my first payment out a few months in order to accumulate additional interest on the full value of the loan. Add overpriced warranties without telling me. And the best one was simply upping the price and trying to have me not notice by focusing on the payment. Luckily I had a business calculator with me and could do NPV as fast as he could.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

andrewl 14y ago

Agreed. And check out Edmunds' account of what goes on behind the scenes in a car dealership by a writer who went undercover as a salesman: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-sales...

johnyzee 14y ago
As a sign of the disruption to come, even the sales people in that article (which is from 2001) were moaning about savvy "internet buyers" who show up at the dealership knowing exactly which car they want and how much they should be paying for it.
ams6110 14y ago
All this moaning about how scummy and awful dealerships are... just don't buy a car there. First and foremost buying a brand new car is a stupid idea from a financial perspective, the depreciation is greatest in the first few years. Buy a used car from a private seller, or if you feel you must have a dealer involved go to a fairly low-scum-factor place like Carmax. All that aside, I love Tesla's direct sales idea. It is disruptive, but I would think a few forward-thinking states are going to allow it (or not stand in the way of it), and people who want to buy a Tesla direct will just arrange road trips there to pick up their cars. Eventually word will spread, public demand will build, and the political barriers will fall elsewhere.
- dsrguru 14y ago
  Buying a new car isn't necessarily a stupid idea from a financial perspective. It's true that cars depreciate in value at a ridiculous rate (which starts the moment you drive off from the dealership), but buying from a private seller means you have no way to tell if the car has been maintained properly. I've heard that a decent number of car owners don't even get oil changes on time. Is it worth saving, say, 30% up front but risking that the car will drop dead at any moment? Maybe yes and maybe no. It depends on how reliable you need the car to be.
  - mc32 14y ago
    Here's an interesting article from consumer reports which looks into the cost of car ownership. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/what-that-car-really-costs-to-own/index.htm http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/06/what-that-car-rea... This graphic (from CR) shows how depreciation accounts for most of the cost of owning a car, over time. http://imgur.com/wrOQu http://imgur.com/wrOQu
  - adrr 14y ago
    I bought a used car a couple months ago, paid $20 for a experian autocheck report on it and it came back with all the service records and accident history. Took it to a mechanic who ensured the car was in good condition. Since it was private party, i paid less than kbb value for it $22k compared to $28k(dealer price). Thats more than 30% savings. And if car is still under bumper to bumper warranty, you can go get a factory extended warranty for $3k and it will be the same as a certified preowned dealer car.
james-skemp 14y ago
Thank you. This was an extremely well written read.

thesis 14y ago

I had a miserable experience the last car purchase I attempted as well. The manager wouldn't give the sales associate any pricing unless I test drove the car. Needless to say I walked out of there. CarWoo.com saved the day for me simply because I got a price narrowed down before they even knew who I was. The only person I had to say no to after that point was the financing guy who tries to sell you tint, pin striping, and all that extra stuff. (Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with carwoo at all.)

r00fus 14y ago

Interestingly, I had a great time buying a car (minivan) with several dealers who were willing to haggle the price (within reason) and compete for my business. The winner actually drove by and we signed all the papers in my home and he took a check then left the vehicle there. Perhaps it's all about supply - in my case, they had over-supply and were willing to play ball. If you have to get a car special ordered, you're already over the barrel as far as they are concerned.

atourgates 14y ago

I expect this is obvious to most of the HN crowd, but the current answer to this problem is: Use The Internet. Most dealerships now have dedicated online sales managers that workd more like fleet sales than a traditional salesman. You email, tell them what you want, and often get pretty straightforward answers. You can do the whole thing online, and walk in with a cashiers check the day you want to pick up your vehicle. Or often have them drive it to your doorstep. It cuts through much of the bullshit of going to a dealership. This is really the only worthwhile way to buy a new car, particularly a special order. Plus, you have a paper trail.

BryanB55 14y ago
Very true. The best way to buy a car right now is to figure out what the cheapest is that you can get for it. Particularly if it is a new car you can generally get down to somewhere around invoice pricing. Email a handful of dealers in your area saying "I'm shopping around and I'd like this car at x price with x features, can you do it? Yes or no?" and if they say yes, print it out and take it with you to the dealer. Carwoo seems to be very helpful with this process but at the time I was purchasing my car Carwoo didn't even have an option for 2012 vehicles. After that it's just a matter of keeping your eyes open as they can sometimes try to change the price on you or some other cheap shot. The internet managers at dealers generally seem a bit easier to work with but beware of their managers that start pulling out all the tricks. I've even had a dealer finalize a price, hand me the papers to sign and they conveniently added a $2,500 fee that "they add to all purchases" When you go from working with internet companies all day to old-fashioned car dealers suddenly the convenience of straight forward "honest prices, no surprises", zappos customer service and a generally painless sales process is gone. Maybe I'm spoiled from buying too many things too easily on Amazon all day with 1 click purchasing at fair prices but even if I am, why can't car sales be this way? It even seems like less hassle for the dealership and the ethical thing to do.
dhimes 14y ago
You could do this with faxes even in the days before the internet was so pervasive- even getting dealerships to bid against each other in metropolitan areas.

matwood 14y ago

When I bought my first car the finance guy tried to rip me off. After catching him in his trick we finished the deal to my terms. When I left his office he told me not to come back Oddly enough that was the most patient I ever was with a car dealer. With places like carmax available it doesn't make sense to deal with any hassle.

zzleeper 14y ago
What was the trick?
- Natsu 14y ago
  I don't know what the trick was for the GP post, but when I last bought one, they tried to sell me one of the car's standard features.
- matwood 14y ago
  Bake oil changes into the loan for the next X years. Move my first payment out a few months in order to accumulate additional interest on the full value of the loan. Add overpriced warranties without telling me. And the best one was simply upping the price and trying to have me not notice by focusing on the payment. Luckily I had a business calculator with me and could do NPV as fast as he could.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]