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> but it seems that Tesla is subject to unfair treatment here given the amount of warnings you have to completely ignore and take no responsibility for. Lol is

> but it seems that Tesla is subject to unfair treatment here given the amount of warnings you have to completely ignore and take no responsibility for. Lol is this for real? No amount of warnings can waive away their gross negligence. Also, the warnings are clearly completely meaningless because they result in nothing changing if they are ignored. > Autopilot is cruise control You're pointing to "warnings" while simultaneously saying this? Seems a bit lacking in self awareness to think that a warning should muster the day, but calling cruise control "autopilot" is somehow irrelevant? > I can't help but think there's maybe some politically driven bias here Look only to yourself, Tesla driver.

thebruce87m 1y ago
> they result in nothing changing if they are ignored. That’s not true > Do I still need to pay attention while using Autopilot? > … Before enabling Autopilot, you must agree to “keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times” and to always “maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle.” Once engaged, Autopilot will also deliver an escalating series of visual and audio warnings, reminding you to place your hands on the wheel if insufficient torque is applied. If you repeatedly ignore these warnings, you will be locked out from using Autopilot during that trip. > If you repeatedly ignore the inattentive driver warnings, Autosteer will be disengaged for that trip. If you receive several ‘Forced Autopilot Disengagements’ (three times for vehicles without a cabin camera and five times for vehicles with a cabin camera), Autosteer and all features that use Autosteer will be temporarily removed for approximately one week. https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/autopilot
- freejazz 1y ago
  And you don't respond to your own point about it being called autopilot despite it not being an autopilot >> If you repeatedly ignore the inattentive driver warnings, Autosteer will be disengaged for that trip. If you receive several ‘Forced Autopilot Disengagements’ (three times for vehicles without a cabin camera and five times for vehicles with a cabin camera), Autosteer and all features that use Autosteer will be temporarily removed for approximately one week. There are videos of people on autopilot without their hands on the wheel...
  - thebruce87m 1y ago
    > And you don't respond to your own point about it being called autopilot despite it not being an autopilot I don’t follow what you mean here? Are you confusing me with someone else? > There are videos of people on autopilot without their hands on the wheel... You can definitely remove your hands momentarily. I’ve seen people apply a weight to the steering wheel to fool it too. Not sure how people defeating the safety features would be Tesla’s fault.
goosejuice 1y ago
First of all I stated my bias. What part of how autopilot is marketed do you find to be gross negligence? I would ask, what is the existing definition of autopilot as defined by the FAA? Who is responsible when autopilot fails? That's the prior art here. Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? I'm pretty neurotic about vehicle safety and I still don't think this clearly points to Tesla as being in the wrong with how they market these features. At best it's subjective.
- freejazz 1y ago
  >What part of how autopilot is marketed do you find to be gross negligence? The fact that it's not an autopilot is a great start. >I would ask, what is the existing definition of autopilot as defined by the FAA? Who is responsible when autopilot fails? That's the prior art here. I don't think the FAA defines terms, and prior art is something specific to patents that has no relevance to the worlds of marketing and product safety. >Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? NTSB does not approve of marketing nor does it provide such definitions. On what basis do you have to suggest they did any of the sort that Tesla needed their approval? >>Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? It's Tesla's. They marketed a product that does not do what they claim it does. The fact that when it does not do those things it can cause (deadly) harm to others, is why they received such a steep adverse judgment. >I'm pretty neurotic about vehicle safety and I still don't think this clearly points to Tesla as being in the wrong with how they market these features. At best it's subjective. Who cares how neurotic you think you are? You haven't come across reasonable in this conversation at all. > At best it's subjective. It's objectively not autopilot.
  - goosejuice 1y ago
    The FAA does define how autopilot can and should be used, and so should the the NHTSA (mixed up the transpo acronyms) for ADAS. I suspect the FTC may address false marketing claims if NHTSA does not. > You haven't come across reasonable in this conversation at all. This is a discussion. We can disagree. No need to attack me.
Sparyjerry 1y ago
Saying Warnings are meaningless because they can be ignored would literally flip the entire legal system on its head. That is literally an insane way to think about things.
- freejazz 1y ago
  Not all warnings are equal. Are you a negligence or products liability attorney? You think that a warning that is easily ignored and moved past to do the same thing anyway is sufficient to obviate liability? I don't think the law agrees with you there. Not sure what you think is so insane about that.

thebruce87m 1y ago

> they result in nothing changing if they are ignored. That’s not true > Do I still need to pay attention while using Autopilot? > … Before enabling Autopilot, you must agree to “keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times” and to always “maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle.” Once engaged, Autopilot will also deliver an escalating series of visual and audio warnings, reminding you to place your hands on the wheel if insufficient torque is applied. If you repeatedly ignore these warnings, you will be locked out from using Autopilot during that trip. > If you repeatedly ignore the inattentive driver warnings, Autosteer will be disengaged for that trip. If you receive several ‘Forced Autopilot Disengagements’ (three times for vehicles without a cabin camera and five times for vehicles with a cabin camera), Autosteer and all features that use Autosteer will be temporarily removed for approximately one week. https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/autopilot

freejazz 1y ago
And you don't respond to your own point about it being called autopilot despite it not being an autopilot >> If you repeatedly ignore the inattentive driver warnings, Autosteer will be disengaged for that trip. If you receive several ‘Forced Autopilot Disengagements’ (three times for vehicles without a cabin camera and five times for vehicles with a cabin camera), Autosteer and all features that use Autosteer will be temporarily removed for approximately one week. There are videos of people on autopilot without their hands on the wheel...
- thebruce87m 1y ago
  > And you don't respond to your own point about it being called autopilot despite it not being an autopilot I don’t follow what you mean here? Are you confusing me with someone else? > There are videos of people on autopilot without their hands on the wheel... You can definitely remove your hands momentarily. I’ve seen people apply a weight to the steering wheel to fool it too. Not sure how people defeating the safety features would be Tesla’s fault.

goosejuice 1y ago

First of all I stated my bias. What part of how autopilot is marketed do you find to be gross negligence? I would ask, what is the existing definition of autopilot as defined by the FAA? Who is responsible when autopilot fails? That's the prior art here. Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? I'm pretty neurotic about vehicle safety and I still don't think this clearly points to Tesla as being in the wrong with how they market these features. At best it's subjective.

freejazz 1y ago
>What part of how autopilot is marketed do you find to be gross negligence? The fact that it's not an autopilot is a great start. >I would ask, what is the existing definition of autopilot as defined by the FAA? Who is responsible when autopilot fails? That's the prior art here. I don't think the FAA defines terms, and prior art is something specific to patents that has no relevance to the worlds of marketing and product safety. >Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? NTSB does not approve of marketing nor does it provide such definitions. On what basis do you have to suggest they did any of the sort that Tesla needed their approval? >>Additionally if NTSB failed to clearly define such definitions and allowments for marketing, is that the fault of Tesla or the governing body? It's Tesla's. They marketed a product that does not do what they claim it does. The fact that when it does not do those things it can cause (deadly) harm to others, is why they received such a steep adverse judgment. >I'm pretty neurotic about vehicle safety and I still don't think this clearly points to Tesla as being in the wrong with how they market these features. At best it's subjective. Who cares how neurotic you think you are? You haven't come across reasonable in this conversation at all. > At best it's subjective. It's objectively not autopilot.
- goosejuice 1y ago
  The FAA does define how autopilot can and should be used, and so should the the NHTSA (mixed up the transpo acronyms) for ADAS. I suspect the FTC may address false marketing claims if NHTSA does not. > You haven't come across reasonable in this conversation at all. This is a discussion. We can disagree. No need to attack me.

Sparyjerry 1y ago

Saying Warnings are meaningless because they can be ignored would literally flip the entire legal system on its head. That is literally an insane way to think about things.

freejazz 1y ago
Not all warnings are equal. Are you a negligence or products liability attorney? You think that a warning that is easily ignored and moved past to do the same thing anyway is sufficient to obviate liability? I don't think the law agrees with you there. Not sure what you think is so insane about that.