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I'm not sure this is true. I feel like I am constantly reading about the problems facing young men. Every article about loneliness - young men. Every article a

I'm not sure this is true. I feel like I am constantly reading about the problems facing young men. Every article about loneliness - young men. Every article about political swings - young men. Every article about economic anxiety or wages - young men. Every article about declining birth rates - young men. It'd make a dangerous drinking game at this point to take a shot any time the top comment on any piece of news is "young men". Moreso if we take another on claims said "young men" aren't being talked about / cared for. And this bleeds into life. Nearly every discussion on politics or social ideas or religion somehow hones it's focus on young men. > we're treating them with very little empathy and consideration, they're just "whining" And to specifically bring up this part, young men are choosing at an alarming rate to follow people like Andrew Tate and Charlie Kirk. They are becoming less compatible with equitable society and, notably, the women in their age bracket. The complaint often isn't that they're "whining", it's that they push against ideas like equality with women and those are non-negotiable. And, as a result, they're exacerbating the problem, as those women would rather not date anyone than date someone who actively campaigns against their interests. This, in turn, makes it harder to be empathetic. "Dating is hard" is true in the modern world. But it's even more true when you just posted a joke on social media that blue haired women have mental illness or a "western vs Asian woman" meme or retweeted some hyper-masculinity influencer. When this gets talked about and women directly state "I don't like how men my age talk to/about me", people often act like the women are being unreasonable and unempathetic - as if the men are owed relationships and women just need to compromise and see things from the other person's shoes. But rarely is the answer that young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. And they simply aren't willing to change that. What is anyone supposed to do about that, exactly?

Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
> young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. You're confusing the symptoms for the cause. The question people are asking is what about our society is driving these behaviors. What is making someone like Andrew Tate appealing to a young men? These are young people, why are you blaming them for not knowing better instead asking why they aren't being taught better?
- wakawaka28 1y ago
  Moreover... Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society. When following that program causes them a great deal of misery with the opposite sex, it is natural for them to feel betrayed and to seek a viewpoint from outside. The fact that the mainstream hates Andrew Tate has the perverse effect of making him more credible to the victims of mainstream brainwashing, regardless of the fact that he pushes a bunch of cringe stuff along with some reasonable takes. I think most people who like Tate probably recognize that it's a mixed bag. But they will put up with the nonsense just to hear some kind of pep talk that meshes with their life experiences.
  - StopDisinfo910 1y ago
    > Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society. Which is what exactly? To be frank, I wouldn't like to be an American young man nowadays, nor would I like to be an American young woman. Everytime this kind of debate pops up on the internet, you seem to see two very vocal camps, one pushing the most absurd reactionary non sense about what men should be openly exposing the grossest misoginy I have ever had the displeasure to read and the other one barely containing its deep seated misandry. People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process. I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains.
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    - wakawaka28 1y ago
      You mention America but this is an international cultural issue. The US is not even the worst country as far as gender relations goes. >People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process. I think you want to shrug this off as some kind of "both sides" situation while ignoring the simple and irrefutable facts on the ground. >I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains. Do you know many young or old people who are unaware of what goes online these days? Is misandry coming out of your TV, popular books, or magazines more acceptable than misogyny on some website or video online? I have met countless women poisoned against me personally without even knowing me. If you try to talk about men's issues, most women just don't want to hear it. They've been taught for decades that men are keeping them down, they deserve everything they want, etc.
wakawaka28 1y ago
At least half of the articles I see about young man problems says essentially, "Men creating their own problems/women most affected" and this has ALWAYS been the case for my entire life. If you accurately diagnose problems, such as a bad economy, divorce laws, outsourcing, immigration, cultural decay, inflation, fat acceptance, a blatant anti-male bias in every part of life, etc., then you are labelled toxic, a sore loser, incel, misogynist, probably a Nazi, so on and so forth. >When this gets talked about and women directly state "I don't like how men my age talk to/about me", people often act like the women are being unreasonable and unempathetic - as if the men are owed relationships and women just need to compromise and see things from the other person's shoes. Every time men talk about their problems, I have to hear about how it affects women while they have essentially zero interest in how it affects men. That includes your whole comment. You piped up just to say men cause their own problems. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe women don't know more about what men think or experience than they do? I will admit that some of the figureheads of the manosphere are bad influences and not likeable. But nobody else more reasonable tends to get mindshare with the mainstream media. The mainstream is all about blaming men and pushing its agenda, and showing the most awful view from the other side is basically setting up a straw man. >But rarely is the answer that young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. And they simply aren't willing to change that. The only role models put forward by "polite society" are absolutely terrible in other ways. As far as attention to appearance, a 7 out of 10 man has about the same amount of options to get sex as a 4 out of 10 woman. They get endlessly lectured about emotional maturity by women who can't figure out (or don't care) that the hot guys they can sleep with will NEVER settle for them. They are expected to be on the same level of "emotional maturity" as women who have easily 10x as much romantic experience as them on average. Men are blamed for everything wrong with women's lives. As for education, college increasingly costs more and pays off less, especially in the DEI era where men (especially white ones) are actively and blatantly being discriminated against.
- spamizbad 1y ago
  You actually have it backwards with colleges: women apply, and meet the necessary academic standards, at a much higher rate than men. To prevent their ratios from getting completely out of whack it’s actually easier to get accepted as a man (assuming equal scorings)
throwaway22032 1y ago
You’re just seeing division. The blue haired woman won’t date the fisherman and the farmer girl won’t date the metrosexual city boy. Somehow you’re getting stuck on one side being universally correct, which in some extreme cases might be reasonable, but generally you are just looking at a societal split rather than one side moving hard. IME, as a mid 30’s bloke in the UK in a stable relationship, guys haven’t significantly moved right wing, society as a whole has feminised (mostly in large cities). If anything it’s the women moving away from the previous norms - polling struggles with this because it defines “how the world was 30 years ago” (e.g. the home that almost everyone I know grew up in) as being hard right / conservative.
- fwip 1y ago
  Conservatives always perceive themselves as simply wanting to return to the past. Unfortunately, their perception of "what was normal 30 years ago" is generally inaccurate as well as biased by their own personal experience, because it's hard to get an objective picture of their society as an 8 year old. You're growing up raised by a particular family (who, statistically, shares your tendency for conservativism) in a particular community, watching media made a decade ago by people who formed their values two decades previously.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Ah, yes, those dastardly conservatives, always trying to <checks notes>, bring back strong labor unions and <checks notes> repeal Citizens United. Which isn't to say that the past was great or anything or that the conservatives are broadly right, just that your generalization is overly broad to the point of absurdity. Pretty much every ideology tries to pick and choose things from the past that ought to be revisited. Edit: The sarcasm in a certain sentence in this comment is obvious enough that I'm not gonna feel bad for anyone who didn't get it.
    - atmavatar 1y ago
      Where have you seen conservatives trying to resurrect labor unions or overturn Citizens United? So far, I've only ever seen such suggestions coming from the fringe left (e.g., Bernie, AOC, etc.) and always shouted down as "socialism". Both obviously need to happen regardless, but I don't see either happening in my lifetime short of a (probably bloody) restructuring of US government, and even then, only if we're lucky.
regularization 1y ago
> young men are choosing at an alarming rate to follow people like Andrew Tate and Charlie Kirk. The message of Bernue Sanders gained a lot of support in 2016 and 2020 from young men. They were denounced in an Atlantic article as Bernie Btos. A New York Times article painted them as crude. Bernie was asked why his supporters were (supposedly) sexist young men on a debate. He was denounced for being interviewed by Joe Rogan. Some young men were leaning toward the Democratic party and were denounced by the Democratic establishment and corporate press. Meanwhile Trump and his cadre encouraged such support. Now the talk in Democratic circles is how to gain back the massive losses they've seen from young men. They've been going out of their way to alienate the support from young men they had over the past nine years. Now their polling numbers are at historic lows.
fwip 1y ago
Wow, your post really got a lot of people upset and reacting without introspection. Which is a shame, because you raise a lot of good points.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  This platform is almost exclusively a single demographic: well-off straight white libertarian men in tech. Heck, that's me too. I honestly wouldn't expect any more than a neutral, if not negative, response. I'm largely targeting things they themselves have some amount of belief in or benefit from.
andsoitis 1y ago
> young men are choosing at an alarming rate to follow people like Andrew Tate and Charlie Kirk. Are they though? This sounds like a huge blanket statement.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  I don't have a source on me right now, but it's pretty well reported that men Gen-Z and younger are becoming increasingly aligned with alt-right beliefs. That is to say, not fiscal conservativism, but the identity politics of the American right. I don't mean to say a majority of them are like this, to be clear.
  - andsoitis 1y ago
    > it's pretty well reported that men Gen-Z and younger are becoming increasingly aligned with alt-right beliefs. Where are these reports? Wikipedia’s summary of Gen Z political beliefs do not support the assertion that young men are increasingly alt-right leaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_Z https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_...
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  - AngryData 1y ago
    To me a lot of that noise still sounds like propaganda to make alt-right groups seem less fringe and weird and more popular than they really are. The problem is propaganda like that does help them because nobody is calling it out and are taking such reports at face value.
imtringued 1y ago
I've seen way more people unilaterally accuse young men of automatic misogyny with no evidence or when someone wants to shut down communication, than calls for misogyny and you're just one more datapoint. It's literally always the stale "You just hate women.", "You just hate women.", "You just hate women" drilled into you over and over again.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  If that's what you took from my post, I'm not sure what to say. I never said these boys and men hate women or are "automatically misogyn[istic]". Nor am I attempting to "shut down communication" on an open forum anyone can comment on. My main point is that they receive lots of attention. And that a perceived lack of empathy comes from many of the conflicts being incapable of compromise, and lead to a reinforcement of beliefs that cause further conflict.
arp242 1y ago
This type of "bad things men is a personal failure and because the men are bad people" is exactly the problem. Whenever there are problems with women, or Muslims, or trans folks, or whatever then it's defended with "yeah, but there are all these societal factors". Which is all fine. But when it's with men: nope. Men are bad because men are bad. It's the same kind of circular dehumanisation logic you see with e.g. Palestinians. The reality is that having a shitty rigged system (for everyone, men and women) while also telling men that they're oh-so-privileged and should shut up whenever they complain is going to drive young people towards Andrew Tate, because he's the only one they're hearing that's actually acknowledging their problems. It's easy for me to recognise that guy as an asshole scammer, but I'm also in my 30s and not 15. I don't like that, but that's just the reality of it. And honestly, this is really not that hard to understand.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  I never said any of those things? - Men aren't inherently bad and the majority of men don't fall under this group being discussed. - Other categories of people can have problems too? Who said they can't? - Of course the problems facing men have societal factors. Tens of millions of boy's across the world didn't wake up and suddenly decide to be regressive and self destructive. - The idea that the system is rigged against men is absolutely absurd. In pretty much every metric, men still have a positive bias. From education to healthcare to politics to employment. That does not, to be clear, mean will always succeed or cannot be discriminated against. - Andrew Tate isn't "acknowledging the problems" at all. He creates a conflict by pushing a worldview incompatible with basically any moral person - sold on easy answers and an idyllic hypermasculine past that did not exist - then leverages the social damage done to the boys who experiment with those ideas to push messages as profound as "it's gay to hang out with women, even your partner". He's already sex trafficker, this is more of the same. It's just this time he's grooming young men for fascist ideology as opposed to grooming women for sex work
4b6442477b1280b 1y ago
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John23832 1y ago
> and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. It's funny how there is never a discussion of problems with young women in this way. Young women are often seen as victims to society. The "Patriarchy", unreasonable social media beauty standards, etc. Young men are seen as failures to society. Something that they did was wrong or incorrect, and that's why they're in the situation they're in. Even as (what I would consider) a well adjusted man, this seems unreasonable to me.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Of course women have their own problems, I would never claim otherwise! For instance, your example, unreasonable social media beauty standards, is an issue largely perpetuated and enforced by women. Men telling women they look pretty without makeup does not solve women feeling pressured to wear makeup, just as women telling men that it's attractive to be more feminine doesn't suddenly make men stop wanting to have big muscles and a chiseled jaw. But women do suffer the ripple effects of historical patriarchy and the fact that they have been, until maybe the last decade, almost entirely unrepresented in health studies, economic and political steering, etc. There remains a systemic negative bias against the success of women. They, just like men, can be both a victim and an aggressor. Heck, this discussion is focusing on young men, but the exact same pipeline also exists for women! See the homesteader influencers, anti-natalists, or dedicated subreddit for misandrists as examples. These problems are not unique to a single demographic, it's just that young men are the largest affected in the most outwardly obvious way. I digress a bit. Young men are not failures - that's silly rhetoric that doesn't belong in an honest discussion - most young people are good people just doing their best in hard times. We're talking about a specific subset of them that are statistically relevant enough so as to create meaningful sociopolitical impacts. Single to low double-digit percentage drifts. And for that subset, I'm still fully capable of empathizing that they are victims of external forces that have abused identity politics and social media algorithms to indoctrinate them in beliefs they likely would not otherwise hold!
  - John23832 1y ago
    I appreciate what you said, but I think my point stands. In my initial post, I pointed out how men are seen as failures with respect to how they fail to meet the standards of women. In your response you talk about how women perpetuate negativity onto themselves. You also point out how women can fall victim to systemic negativity in society. However, you didn't say anything of the responsibility that women have to men to make things work (in the same way that you pointed how men fail to meet the standards of women). That's the point.
seabird 1y ago
>But rarely is the answer that young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. And they simply aren't willing to change that. What is anyone supposed to do about that, exactly? - bad influences - slob - not disciplined enough for education - insane politics - emotionally stunted - slob again This imagined incel reprobate comes up every time this discussion happens, which is fairly often now that the whiffed messaging and slipping numbers among 18-29yo men (including young black and Latino men) in 2024 somehow has the DNC and progressives scratching their heads. The fuckup you are describing is fairly rare. People imagine that man to feel better about how ineffective the current progressive messaging towards that demographic is. Log off of Discord and 4chan and you'll find plenty of young men that don't listen to manosphere shit, do take care of themselves, went through higher education, held fairly progressive political beliefs until quite recently, handle themselves emotionally exactly the way society has asked, and take care of their living situation just fine, but still feel like their three options are work, work, and blow their head smoove off. While you're busy swinging at the air, a significantly more dangerous cohort of crypto-deathcultists is forming. They don't not have a girlfriend because they're a freak that says and thinks awful things about women. They don't have a girlfriend because they can't really afford it, can't imagine anybody would want them, and even if they did, in a hyper-atomized post-social-media world that experienced a massive overcorrection in regards to what is appropriate courtship behavior, have no idea how to get started. They just don't really think much about them at all, positive or negative, not because they hate them and want to actively disregard their needs and wants, but because it's effectively like worrying about what an astronaut in space is thinking about right now. And for them, that's all good, maybe even great! They got the little they were owed and Good Men make do with what they have, which is often a reaffirming "yeah dude this life shit sucks lmao" from their buddies, and a generous serving of either infinite distraction if they want to stick around for a bit or self-destructive risk-taking if they don't. The only delusion required is that despite society's massive investment in them that was made in hopes that they would continue society, they in particular don't strictly need to continue society because it would be a good thing that could possibly make them happy, and they're obviously not OWED good things. Nobody is. To be clear, in some perfectly equal world, this same thing could be happening to women, or men could handle the current situation the way women do. This is not one of those worlds. With the way people in the US are currently socialized, men don't like dealing with dead weight (this unfortunately often includes displaying perfectly reasonable emotions) and women don't like dealing with overly emotional manchildren (this unfortunately often includes displaying perfectly reasonable emotions). Men nut up, women have a lot of platonic friendships that they're emotionally intimate in. Shifting this will take generations, you and your children and their children will be long dead before this ever happens. Men who are alone and running on fumes can't be lightly brushed aside just because boogeymen like Andrew Tate exist. If you don't let off the throttle on that idea we're just going to keep getting husks of men that are entirely indifferent towards tearing at the fabric of society with a net-negative contribution.
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xg15 1y ago
Yes, I keep reading about the problems just as well, what I do not see at all is any kind of solution-oriented approach. With women, the problems and inequality definitely exist, but there is also an enormous movement and a large social and institutional support infrastructure. The same doesn't seem to be the case for men, as far as I can observe it. (On the other hand, I would take some indicators with a grain if salt. Yes, women get more likes - but they also get more unpleasant and creepy interactions. Even then, the dynamics online also don't directly translate to offline life. Finally, I think especially for people who spend a large part of their life online, there is a risk of developing unrealistic expectations on things like dating or relationships - for both genders.)

Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago

> young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. You're confusing the symptoms for the cause. The question people are asking is what about our society is driving these behaviors. What is making someone like Andrew Tate appealing to a young men? These are young people, why are you blaming them for not knowing better instead asking why they aren't being taught better?

wakawaka28 1y ago
Moreover... Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society. When following that program causes them a great deal of misery with the opposite sex, it is natural for them to feel betrayed and to seek a viewpoint from outside. The fact that the mainstream hates Andrew Tate has the perverse effect of making him more credible to the victims of mainstream brainwashing, regardless of the fact that he pushes a bunch of cringe stuff along with some reasonable takes. I think most people who like Tate probably recognize that it's a mixed bag. But they will put up with the nonsense just to hear some kind of pep talk that meshes with their life experiences.
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  > Most young people are indoctrinated extensively in the female-centric view of society deemed acceptable by polite society. Which is what exactly? To be frank, I wouldn't like to be an American young man nowadays, nor would I like to be an American young woman. Everytime this kind of debate pops up on the internet, you seem to see two very vocal camps, one pushing the most absurd reactionary non sense about what men should be openly exposing the grossest misoginy I have ever had the displeasure to read and the other one barely containing its deep seated misandry. People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process. I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains.
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  - wakawaka28 1y ago
    You mention America but this is an international cultural issue. The US is not even the worst country as far as gender relations goes. >People really like to reduce this topic to a for them or against them position preferably erasing any kind of complexity in the process. I think you want to shrug this off as some kind of "both sides" situation while ignoring the simple and irrefutable facts on the ground. >I feel like normal people have exited the discussion on this topic a long time ago and the young who live most of their social life on the internet nowadays are just exposed to what remains. Do you know many young or old people who are unaware of what goes online these days? Is misandry coming out of your TV, popular books, or magazines more acceptable than misogyny on some website or video online? I have met countless women poisoned against me personally without even knowing me. If you try to talk about men's issues, most women just don't want to hear it. They've been taught for decades that men are keeping them down, they deserve everything they want, etc.

wakawaka28 1y ago

At least half of the articles I see about young man problems says essentially, "Men creating their own problems/women most affected" and this has ALWAYS been the case for my entire life. If you accurately diagnose problems, such as a bad economy, divorce laws, outsourcing, immigration, cultural decay, inflation, fat acceptance, a blatant anti-male bias in every part of life, etc., then you are labelled toxic, a sore loser, incel, misogynist, probably a Nazi, so on and so forth. >When this gets talked about and women directly state "I don't like how men my age talk to/about me", people often act like the women are being unreasonable and unempathetic - as if the men are owed relationships and women just need to compromise and see things from the other person's shoes. Every time men talk about their problems, I have to hear about how it affects women while they have essentially zero interest in how it affects men. That includes your whole comment. You piped up just to say men cause their own problems. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe women don't know more about what men think or experience than they do? I will admit that some of the figureheads of the manosphere are bad influences and not likeable. But nobody else more reasonable tends to get mindshare with the mainstream media. The mainstream is all about blaming men and pushing its agenda, and showing the most awful view from the other side is basically setting up a straw man. >But rarely is the answer that young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. And they simply aren't willing to change that. The only role models put forward by "polite society" are absolutely terrible in other ways. As far as attention to appearance, a 7 out of 10 man has about the same amount of options to get sex as a 4 out of 10 woman. They get endlessly lectured about emotional maturity by women who can't figure out (or don't care) that the hot guys they can sleep with will NEVER settle for them. They are expected to be on the same level of "emotional maturity" as women who have easily 10x as much romantic experience as them on average. Men are blamed for everything wrong with women's lives. As for education, college increasingly costs more and pays off less, especially in the DEI era where men (especially white ones) are actively and blatantly being discriminated against.

spamizbad 1y ago
You actually have it backwards with colleges: women apply, and meet the necessary academic standards, at a much higher rate than men. To prevent their ratios from getting completely out of whack it’s actually easier to get accepted as a man (assuming equal scorings)

throwaway22032 1y ago

You’re just seeing division. The blue haired woman won’t date the fisherman and the farmer girl won’t date the metrosexual city boy. Somehow you’re getting stuck on one side being universally correct, which in some extreme cases might be reasonable, but generally you are just looking at a societal split rather than one side moving hard. IME, as a mid 30’s bloke in the UK in a stable relationship, guys haven’t significantly moved right wing, society as a whole has feminised (mostly in large cities). If anything it’s the women moving away from the previous norms - polling struggles with this because it defines “how the world was 30 years ago” (e.g. the home that almost everyone I know grew up in) as being hard right / conservative.

fwip 1y ago
Conservatives always perceive themselves as simply wanting to return to the past. Unfortunately, their perception of "what was normal 30 years ago" is generally inaccurate as well as biased by their own personal experience, because it's hard to get an objective picture of their society as an 8 year old. You're growing up raised by a particular family (who, statistically, shares your tendency for conservativism) in a particular community, watching media made a decade ago by people who formed their values two decades previously.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Ah, yes, those dastardly conservatives, always trying to <checks notes>, bring back strong labor unions and <checks notes> repeal Citizens United. Which isn't to say that the past was great or anything or that the conservatives are broadly right, just that your generalization is overly broad to the point of absurdity. Pretty much every ideology tries to pick and choose things from the past that ought to be revisited. Edit: The sarcasm in a certain sentence in this comment is obvious enough that I'm not gonna feel bad for anyone who didn't get it.
  - atmavatar 1y ago
    Where have you seen conservatives trying to resurrect labor unions or overturn Citizens United? So far, I've only ever seen such suggestions coming from the fringe left (e.g., Bernie, AOC, etc.) and always shouted down as "socialism". Both obviously need to happen regardless, but I don't see either happening in my lifetime short of a (probably bloody) restructuring of US government, and even then, only if we're lucky.

regularization 1y ago

> young men are choosing at an alarming rate to follow people like Andrew Tate and Charlie Kirk. The message of Bernue Sanders gained a lot of support in 2016 and 2020 from young men. They were denounced in an Atlantic article as Bernie Btos. A New York Times article painted them as crude. Bernie was asked why his supporters were (supposedly) sexist young men on a debate. He was denounced for being interviewed by Joe Rogan. Some young men were leaning toward the Democratic party and were denounced by the Democratic establishment and corporate press. Meanwhile Trump and his cadre encouraged such support. Now the talk in Democratic circles is how to gain back the massive losses they've seen from young men. They've been going out of their way to alienate the support from young men they had over the past nine years. Now their polling numbers are at historic lows.

fwip 1y ago

Wow, your post really got a lot of people upset and reacting without introspection. Which is a shame, because you raise a lot of good points.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
This platform is almost exclusively a single demographic: well-off straight white libertarian men in tech. Heck, that's me too. I honestly wouldn't expect any more than a neutral, if not negative, response. I'm largely targeting things they themselves have some amount of belief in or benefit from.

andsoitis 1y ago

> young men are choosing at an alarming rate to follow people like Andrew Tate and Charlie Kirk. Are they though? This sounds like a huge blanket statement.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
I don't have a source on me right now, but it's pretty well reported that men Gen-Z and younger are becoming increasingly aligned with alt-right beliefs. That is to say, not fiscal conservativism, but the identity politics of the American right. I don't mean to say a majority of them are like this, to be clear.
- andsoitis 1y ago
  > it's pretty well reported that men Gen-Z and younger are becoming increasingly aligned with alt-right beliefs. Where are these reports? Wikipedia’s summary of Gen Z political beliefs do not support the assertion that young men are increasingly alt-right leaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_Z https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_...
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- AngryData 1y ago
  To me a lot of that noise still sounds like propaganda to make alt-right groups seem less fringe and weird and more popular than they really are. The problem is propaganda like that does help them because nobody is calling it out and are taking such reports at face value.

imtringued 1y ago

I've seen way more people unilaterally accuse young men of automatic misogyny with no evidence or when someone wants to shut down communication, than calls for misogyny and you're just one more datapoint. It's literally always the stale "You just hate women.", "You just hate women.", "You just hate women" drilled into you over and over again.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
If that's what you took from my post, I'm not sure what to say. I never said these boys and men hate women or are "automatically misogyn[istic]". Nor am I attempting to "shut down communication" on an open forum anyone can comment on. My main point is that they receive lots of attention. And that a perceived lack of empathy comes from many of the conflicts being incapable of compromise, and lead to a reinforcement of beliefs that cause further conflict.

arp242 1y ago

This type of "bad things men is a personal failure and because the men are bad people" is exactly the problem. Whenever there are problems with women, or Muslims, or trans folks, or whatever then it's defended with "yeah, but there are all these societal factors". Which is all fine. But when it's with men: nope. Men are bad because men are bad. It's the same kind of circular dehumanisation logic you see with e.g. Palestinians. The reality is that having a shitty rigged system (for everyone, men and women) while also telling men that they're oh-so-privileged and should shut up whenever they complain is going to drive young people towards Andrew Tate, because he's the only one they're hearing that's actually acknowledging their problems. It's easy for me to recognise that guy as an asshole scammer, but I'm also in my 30s and not 15. I don't like that, but that's just the reality of it. And honestly, this is really not that hard to understand.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
I never said any of those things? - Men aren't inherently bad and the majority of men don't fall under this group being discussed. - Other categories of people can have problems too? Who said they can't? - Of course the problems facing men have societal factors. Tens of millions of boy's across the world didn't wake up and suddenly decide to be regressive and self destructive. - The idea that the system is rigged against men is absolutely absurd. In pretty much every metric, men still have a positive bias. From education to healthcare to politics to employment. That does not, to be clear, mean will always succeed or cannot be discriminated against. - Andrew Tate isn't "acknowledging the problems" at all. He creates a conflict by pushing a worldview incompatible with basically any moral person - sold on easy answers and an idyllic hypermasculine past that did not exist - then leverages the social damage done to the boys who experiment with those ideas to push messages as profound as "it's gay to hang out with women, even your partner". He's already sex trafficker, this is more of the same. It's just this time he's grooming young men for fascist ideology as opposed to grooming women for sex work

4b6442477b1280b 1y ago

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John23832 1y ago

> and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. It's funny how there is never a discussion of problems with young women in this way. Young women are often seen as victims to society. The "Patriarchy", unreasonable social media beauty standards, etc. Young men are seen as failures to society. Something that they did was wrong or incorrect, and that's why they're in the situation they're in. Even as (what I would consider) a well adjusted man, this seems unreasonable to me.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
Of course women have their own problems, I would never claim otherwise! For instance, your example, unreasonable social media beauty standards, is an issue largely perpetuated and enforced by women. Men telling women they look pretty without makeup does not solve women feeling pressured to wear makeup, just as women telling men that it's attractive to be more feminine doesn't suddenly make men stop wanting to have big muscles and a chiseled jaw. But women do suffer the ripple effects of historical patriarchy and the fact that they have been, until maybe the last decade, almost entirely unrepresented in health studies, economic and political steering, etc. There remains a systemic negative bias against the success of women. They, just like men, can be both a victim and an aggressor. Heck, this discussion is focusing on young men, but the exact same pipeline also exists for women! See the homesteader influencers, anti-natalists, or dedicated subreddit for misandrists as examples. These problems are not unique to a single demographic, it's just that young men are the largest affected in the most outwardly obvious way. I digress a bit. Young men are not failures - that's silly rhetoric that doesn't belong in an honest discussion - most young people are good people just doing their best in hard times. We're talking about a specific subset of them that are statistically relevant enough so as to create meaningful sociopolitical impacts. Single to low double-digit percentage drifts. And for that subset, I'm still fully capable of empathizing that they are victims of external forces that have abused identity politics and social media algorithms to indoctrinate them in beliefs they likely would not otherwise hold!
- John23832 1y ago
  I appreciate what you said, but I think my point stands. In my initial post, I pointed out how men are seen as failures with respect to how they fail to meet the standards of women. In your response you talk about how women perpetuate negativity onto themselves. You also point out how women can fall victim to systemic negativity in society. However, you didn't say anything of the responsibility that women have to men to make things work (in the same way that you pointed how men fail to meet the standards of women). That's the point.

seabird 1y ago

>But rarely is the answer that young men have a crisis of self-selecting bad role models, putting less (or no) effort into their appearance and education, holding gross sociopolitical beliefs, and not developing the emotional and household maturity an adult woman expects. And they simply aren't willing to change that. What is anyone supposed to do about that, exactly? - bad influences - slob - not disciplined enough for education - insane politics - emotionally stunted - slob again This imagined incel reprobate comes up every time this discussion happens, which is fairly often now that the whiffed messaging and slipping numbers among 18-29yo men (including young black and Latino men) in 2024 somehow has the DNC and progressives scratching their heads. The fuckup you are describing is fairly rare. People imagine that man to feel better about how ineffective the current progressive messaging towards that demographic is. Log off of Discord and 4chan and you'll find plenty of young men that don't listen to manosphere shit, do take care of themselves, went through higher education, held fairly progressive political beliefs until quite recently, handle themselves emotionally exactly the way society has asked, and take care of their living situation just fine, but still feel like their three options are work, work, and blow their head smoove off. While you're busy swinging at the air, a significantly more dangerous cohort of crypto-deathcultists is forming. They don't not have a girlfriend because they're a freak that says and thinks awful things about women. They don't have a girlfriend because they can't really afford it, can't imagine anybody would want them, and even if they did, in a hyper-atomized post-social-media world that experienced a massive overcorrection in regards to what is appropriate courtship behavior, have no idea how to get started. They just don't really think much about them at all, positive or negative, not because they hate them and want to actively disregard their needs and wants, but because it's effectively like worrying about what an astronaut in space is thinking about right now. And for them, that's all good, maybe even great! They got the little they were owed and Good Men make do with what they have, which is often a reaffirming "yeah dude this life shit sucks lmao" from their buddies, and a generous serving of either infinite distraction if they want to stick around for a bit or self-destructive risk-taking if they don't. The only delusion required is that despite society's massive investment in them that was made in hopes that they would continue society, they in particular don't strictly need to continue society because it would be a good thing that could possibly make them happy, and they're obviously not OWED good things. Nobody is. To be clear, in some perfectly equal world, this same thing could be happening to women, or men could handle the current situation the way women do. This is not one of those worlds. With the way people in the US are currently socialized, men don't like dealing with dead weight (this unfortunately often includes displaying perfectly reasonable emotions) and women don't like dealing with overly emotional manchildren (this unfortunately often includes displaying perfectly reasonable emotions). Men nut up, women have a lot of platonic friendships that they're emotionally intimate in. Shifting this will take generations, you and your children and their children will be long dead before this ever happens. Men who are alone and running on fumes can't be lightly brushed aside just because boogeymen like Andrew Tate exist. If you don't let off the throttle on that idea we're just going to keep getting husks of men that are entirely indifferent towards tearing at the fabric of society with a net-negative contribution.

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xg15 1y ago

Yes, I keep reading about the problems just as well, what I do not see at all is any kind of solution-oriented approach. With women, the problems and inequality definitely exist, but there is also an enormous movement and a large social and institutional support infrastructure. The same doesn't seem to be the case for men, as far as I can observe it. (On the other hand, I would take some indicators with a grain if salt. Yes, women get more likes - but they also get more unpleasant and creepy interactions. Even then, the dynamics online also don't directly translate to offline life. Finally, I think especially for people who spend a large part of their life online, there is a risk of developing unrealistic expectations on things like dating or relationships - for both genders.)