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Italy's pizza detectives
- dundarious 1y agoI really hate these movements that clothe themselves in words like "authenticity", but when you look underneath, it's just a clique.
- tossandthrow 1y agoFlat bread topped with some sort of condements is expected to have independently discovered basically everywhere where they had bread in some incarnation. The Italians really did their marketing well to get the attribution
- bavent 1y agoQuesadilla? Pizza. Taco? Folded pizza. Calzone - taco, therefore folded pizza. Toast with jam? Sweet pizza. Shit on a shingle? Military pizza.
- pfcd 1y agoAny food without bread? Pizza without bread. Pizza without bread? Pizza without bread. Pizza? Pizza. Pizza with pizza? Pizza++.
- deathanatos 1y agoPizza is toast, unless it's deep dish then it's quiche: https://cuberule.com/ https://cuberule.com/ A quesadilla is a sandwich, though.
- bavent 1y agoA sandwich is two pizzas kissing.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y agoThe next step is to create pizzarule.com with an Apple marketing-inspired design explaining how all food is some derivative of pizza.
- Loughla 1y agoAll food evolves into pizza given enough time, or something like that.
- zdragnar 1y agoI think the cube rule should really be amended such that toast is actually "open-faced sandwich". Toast is just bread. Toast with toppings, such as pizza, is actually an open-faced sandwich. It might be casual heresy but it is right.
- Dylan16807 1y agoThat's a perfectly good synonym, but god no don't make one category be "X" and another category be "A B X". That will cause nothing but confusion.
- xarope 1y agoI ordered a bruschetta in Nice (France), and got something that looked like a mini pizza. Granted, Nice is next door'ish to Italy
- LambdaComplex 1y ago>Pizza++ Pizza with classes?
- ArekDymalski 1y agoOr Pizza in notepad.
- karmakurtisaani 1y agoPizza with way too many toppings. Some of them toxic.
- insane_dreamer 1y agoPizza with spices? Pizza#
- afandian 1y agoBy coincidence I heard an interview on Radio 4 today. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002gqz2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002gqz2 41:00 Approx transcript: > by the 1970s Italy had left its peasant origins behind it had become an industrial consumerist, democracy, and at that point, people start to get nostalgic, and they make the past simple for themselves by turning it into recipes, turning into simple forms. And that has become actually, and this is another novelty, very politicised in recent years. The current government, which of all the various right wing parties have been in power since 1994, is the one that most is most proud of its sort of fascist DNA, if I feel like, it's linked to historical links to Mussolini's fascist Party. They've really wedded themselves to this idea, this food nostalgia, this idea of defending Italian culture against contamination from abroad or wherever it might be.
- fsckboy 1y agopizza got bigger (than in Italy) first in America, and that started to happen well before the actual Fascists. So, no, pizza standards are not a nostalgic defense against contamination. French winemakers started defending their region names as trademarks in the middle of the last century (picked up steam in 1960s to 1970s) and cheese followed, and the rest of the Europe too. That's where the joke "real Existentialism must come from France, otherwise you just have sparkling anxiety" comes from. As one rather benign example, Hungary and Slovakia asserted rights to the name of the wine Tokaji/Tokai and in 2007 Friuli Italy had to stop using that name for their wine, a name they had been using for hundreds of years (though the grape is still called Tokai in Italy). In Hungary, the measure of quality/sweetness of the wine (it's a dessert wine) is called Puttonyos. The Italians now call their wine Friulano (not a dessert wine in particular); I want the Italians to start measuring their quality in Putanas just to give the finger to Hungary.
- afandian 1y agoI know nothing of this field. Just commenting as the interview came up today. But surely ideas about nationalism and purity can arise at any time? IIRC the interview was about pasta recipes, and about cultural rather than DOP purity.
- fsckboy 1y agothe italians have plenty of flat breads with condiments (try foccacia), and they are not pizza. those italians don't say "hey, we invented that too", nor should anybody else. we all agree what pizza means at least till the point we need to duke it out over pineapple (which is not pizza) i'm reminded of an old Lake Wobegon piece about Minnesota tacos (pronounced to rhyme with tack-o). they're made with folded over white bread and with your flannel sleeves rolled up because the juice will run down your arms
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- barnabyjones 1y agoThat's true but most of them are unleavened, the yeast plus the fast cook time is I think what makes pizza unique, more than the cheese which is present in other variations.
- bapak 1y agoPoems are just stack of words, aren't they.
- defrost 1y agomore of sack, stacks are sooo ordered. shuffle emily poem dickinson invariant are.
- thefz 1y agoThe difference is in fact in the tiny details between pizza and flatbread
- tossandthrow 1y agoLike there is a tiiiiny difference between a flatbread and a flat bread.
- pryelluw 1y agoWhy do they need to be undercover? It’s not like anyone is expecting to be raided by the pizza police. And can they do anything about hot pockets? Or is that considered a calzone? Are calzones off jurisdiction? They’re basically a pizza folded onto itself.
- gowld 1y ago> Why do they need to be undercover? It's a marketing gimmick to promote their pizza brand.
- drdec 1y agoA calzone should have ricotta cheese not mozzarella. Stromboli is closer to folded up pizza as it typically has mozzarella cheese.
- SoftTalker 1y agoIn the USA any of those can be anything. Sromboli can be ground sausage and cheese on a french bread roll.
- asveikau 1y agoStromboli is American, from Philadelphia. It was named after a movie about a Sicilian island that was popular in 1950, because they just wanted to give it an Italian sounding name. Afaik they don't serve those in Italy or even that far away from Philadelphia. So "in the USA that can be anything" is ... I guess accurate, for a regional American dish
- pryelluw 1y agoThey are served in Puerto Rico. I find that amusing because there’s local types not found anywhere else. The Italians, for revenge, do their own cheesesteak sandwich.
- drdec 1y agoJust because some people abuse the language out of ignorance does not make them right ;-)
- wagwang 1y agoThese detectives should come from new york given that ny pizza is far superior than italian pizza
- jmuguy 1y agoIt tracks that if you're going to give an accreditation you want to make sure its being upheld. Pizza shops can cut a lot of corners that a normal patron might not notice or care about.
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- logifail 1y agoI've travelled quite a lot in the top half of Italy over the decades for both work and pleasure - Milan, Venice, Florence, Siena, Verona, Bologna, Pisa, Parma. I would suggest that from the outside it could be easy to underestimate just how seriously (many) Italians take their food. Last year - as a family, on the way somewhere else - we visited a "factory" that makes Parmesan cheese. It's astounding how much work and time goes into making a product that, although it's of course produced "on mass", feels anything other than mass produced.
- MarcelOlsz 1y ago>"on mass" En masse?
- oguz-ismail 1y agosame difference
- chielk 1y agoSeem difrens
- mannycalavera42 1y agosé difez
- stonemetal12 1y agoNot really "in mass (quantities)" would mean large amounts produced, "on mass" means the factory sits on a very large rock. "en masse" is French for "in mass" not "on mass" so completely different.
- oguz-ismail 1y agoit's just one letter no big deal
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- afandian 1y agoToday I learned about pizza fritta! Lends unexpected legitimacy to what I saw on the menu in a chippy one night out long ago in Glasgow. I never dared to try it. (But I can attest to the deep fried mars bar)
- fractallyte 1y agoDeep fried Mars bar is like a dessert group unto itself!
- pseudolus 1y agoIt's amusing to read some of the early articles, such as one that appeared in the New York Times ("Pizza a pie Popular in Southern Italy, Is Offered Here for Home Consumption"), explaining to the mainstream what pizza is and heralding its availability as take-out in the US: https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1781097393301119360?lang=en https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1781097393301119360?lang=e...
- BrenBarn 1y agoMy mom grew up in New Jersey and often mentions how there was a pizza place in her hometown called "Vic's Tomato Pies". I guess early on a lot of places called it that because people wouldn't know the word "pizza". Interesting how ubiquitous it's become in a relatively short amount of time.
- madcaptenor 1y agoBut "tomato pie" is a different thing! https://www.seriouseats.com/homemade-philadelphia-tomato-pie-style-pizza-recipe https://www.seriouseats.com/homemade-philadelphia-tomato-pie...
- dismalaf 1y agoNeapolitan pizza isn't even the most popular pizza in Italy... The AVPN is basically just an organization promoting Neapolitan pizza around the world since Naples is traditionally a poorer part of Italy and extra tourism helps. It is interesting though, and I do enjoy Neapolitan pizza (even got an Ooni pizza oven just to make it at home lol).
- bapak 1y agoYes and no. I've seen many established businesses gradually switch to it over time due to it being "the original." Thank Instagram for that.
- socalgal2 1y agoI kinda wish there was more of this type of thing. I'm all for making new foods but call them something else please. As a Hawaiian I find it culturally disrespectful what passes for poke in most areas outside the Hawaiian Islands, so I kind of wish they were required to use a different name so that they could hopefully learn what they're making is not poke, at least not traditional poke. Here's is Google's first picture of poke https://pasteboard.co/seVXA4y4e3Qb.webp https://pasteboard.co/seVXA4y4e3Qb.webp Maybe now-a-days that's common in Hawaii, probably to cater to tourists, but, at least all the places I go and the stuff I grew up with looks nothing like that. It would look more like this. No rice, very few veggies. https://pasteboard.co/RdAwZEuQQENd.jpg https://pasteboard.co/RdAwZEuQQENd.jpg There are various varieties (salt, shoyu, octopus, etc...) but they all have one thing in common. They are not served with veggies and rice.
- mc32 1y agoSo, nix the Thai curries and Japanese curries because they are different from their Indian counterpart? If a particular country itself wants to police what something means, I guess... and that means we could ossify what poke means in the us but poke exists in other countries as well (like the philippine islands and japan.) and they are different. But I disagree... we can have Texas BBQ and Carolinas BBQ and St Louis BBQ... or CT lobster rolls and maine Lobster rolls... We might as well rail against calling non mincemeat hamburgers 'burgers because they are not genuine burgers...
- socalgal2 1y agoI didn't suggest getting rid of anything. I suggested changing the name. If you make brownies without chocolate you don't call them brownies. Maybe you call the blondies. Or if they're made with a unique incredient then you called them whatever. "vegan brownies", "no-bake brownies", etc. but not just "brownies" as that has a meaning. If you make hummus from beets you call it "beet hummus". If you make it from avocados you call it "avocado hummus". Because calling it just "hummus" implies you made it from chickpeans, seseme, etc... Same here. If you add lettuce, avocado, rice, etc to poke then call it "salad poke" or "poke salad" but don't just call it "poke" because with those things added it's not poke.
- harimau777 1y agoPizza's interesting to me because it's one of the few foods where I think the American variant is largely superior to the original. All of the "traditional style" pizza I've had simply doesn't have near enough cheese. Sort of reminds me of how Japan has mastered high end denim despite it being a very American product.
- Larrikin 1y agoThe best pizzas in the world are in the US, the best Italian style pizzas are in Japan.
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- jerlam 1y agoPizza in the US is so detached from its Italian origins that if you emphasized "authentic" pizza, a fair amount of people would think you're talking about New York style.
- potato3732842 1y agoPizza as any modern reader knows it originated in the US and was backported to Italy.
- ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago>Sort of reminds me of how Japan has mastered high end denim despite it being a very American product. Denim is a contraction of "serge de Nîmes". It is French in origin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denim https://www.insidefashiondesign.com/post/how-denim-was-invented-a-blend-of-craft-trade-and-innovation https://www.insidefashiondesign.com/post/how-denim-was-inven...
- thefz 1y agoMastered by Levi Strauss, who was Bavarian.
- BrenBarn 1y ago> And the final product must be consumed within 10 minutes after emerging from the oven. I like this requirement because it means I could go into a place, order a pizza, sit there starting at it for 15 minutes, and then report them for a violation. :-) Joking aside, I'm always intrigued by these associations and legal categories that nail down specific characteristics for certain foods (or other items). A lot of them require stuff to be made in a specific geographical area, so it's cool to see this Naples pizza one focusing on the actual process rather than the location. But this is still largely about the process rather than the product. It'd be an interesting challenge to see if you could define such categories in terms of the product itself, so you could verify just based on the pizza whether it was a "real" pizza, without knowing how it was made. I do have to wonder whether it's really worth it to go through all this rigmarole to get the official Neapolitan pizza seal of approval. In practice I find that in a fair amount of cases, the most "authentic" version of something isn't necessarily the one I like the most. And if it costs the restaurant a bunch of money to get this certification, I'm not sure it's going to be worth it to me as a customer when that cost is passed on to me. I care more about how good the pizza is than how authentic it is. Amusingly, I once met an Italian (from the Veneto area) who loved Little Ceasar's pizza and said Italian pizza was "boring".
- enjo 1y ago>I do have to wonder whether it's really worth it to go through all this rigmarole to get the official Neapolitan pizza seal of approval. In my neighborhood in Denver I have several Neapolitan pizza options. One is fully Vero certified. I go there often because it truly does give me the taste of Napoli from my childhood. The best option, however, is recognizable as Neapolitan pizza but is much better than anything I have ever had in Italy (at least to my taste buds). I feel like both really have their place and both restaurants have been around for quite awhile at this point so it seems to work for both. That said I do appreciate the places that have are fully Vero certified because when I travel if I see that sticker in the window I know I am gonna have a pretty good pizza.
- potato3732842 1y ago>I'm always intrigued by these associations and legal categories that nail down specific characteristics for certain foods >A lot of them require stuff to be made in a specific All these organizations are basically just lobbying/PR groups trying to ensure some amount of baseline "make work" for their members. They engage in certification and quality control (not that those aren't valid activities) as a means to that end. Their odd requirements like "made in X" and "consumed in Y" make sense in this context since they're basically political requirements to curry favor from various groups. It mostly works. Neapolitan Pizza tastes the same everywhere and engineered structures mostly don't fall down but given the change these organizations try their hardest to capture markets and stamp out lower end competing offerings which is bad.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago<us-centric-pizza-complaint-dept> I could never find good pizza in California, and I definitely can't find it in Texas. Nor Illinois, sorry. The only good pizza appears to be in NYC. It probably also exists in other parts of New England too. Massachusetts, I'm guessing. But when someone isn't near the five boroughs, Amnon's Kosher frozen pizza is tolerable. Why is it so damn hard to make edible pizza? Do 99.95% of customers have zero taste and will accept any trash put in front of them? </us-centric-pizza-complaint-dept>
- sirodoht 1y agoReminds me of this classic HN thread [0] and accompanying amazing resource [1] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14289307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14289307 [1]: https://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm https://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm