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At the same time NYC and Toronto, we are removing protected bike lanes. In North America the acceptable amount of lives per year to sacrifice for a little conve

At the same time NYC and Toronto, we are removing protected bike lanes. In North America the acceptable amount of lives per year to sacrifice for a little convenience for drivers is above zero, and apparently rising.

jeffbee 1y ago
This is a great reason to have snap elections instead of scheduled elections. Mayor Adams will scorch the earth to get the votes of a handful of extremists in his quixotic reelection attempt, and will harm lots of people in doing so.
- Alive-in-2025 1y ago
  How does snap elections solve this problem? You'd have less information if it happened in the next week, especially about less well known candidates. You are suggesting that elections coming in a few months leads to tricking people?
  - sdenton4 1y ago
    It creates conditions for more direct accountability. There's a pretty standard pattern of getting elected, doing the more extreme things, and then giving the voters time to cool off before the election happens.
    - jerlam 1y ago
      It also prevents the election losers from lighting everything on fire on the way out.
      - jdiff 1y ago
        The pattern in the US seems to be to leave time bombs running that only detonate if you don't get re-elected, something that snap elections wouldn't help with.
zwnow 1y ago
Freedom, f* yeah
lanfeust6 1y ago
Helsinki didn't achieve this with bike lanes.
- mitthrowaway2 1y ago
  From the article: > Cycling and walking infrastructure has been expanded in recent years, helping to separate vulnerable road users from motor traffic. > Helsinki’s current traffic safety strategy runs from 2022 to 2026 and includes special measures to protect pedestrians, children, and cyclists.
  - lanfeust6 1y ago
    With no numbers offered. Lots of cities "expanded" cycling infrastructure but can't boast that level of safety. By far the strongest distinguising factor is the speed limit. That is a mere policy that doesnt cost taxpayers billions, it works, and therefore is politically viable. "Special measures" is not just code for bike lanes either.
cyberax 1y ago
[flagged]
- roer 1y ago
  As someone living in Copenhagen, I respectfully disagree.
  - cyberax 1y ago
    Ah yeah. It's no wonder people keep mentioning Copenhagen without telling its dirty little secret. It stayed liveable _despite_ the scourge of urbanism because a third of its population was forcibly (via economic forces) displaced during 1970-s, and it _still_ has not reached the 1969 peak: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20894/copenhagen/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20894/cope... So it was able to avoid the effects of the density-misery spiral. But it'll get to experience them soon. The transit will become more crowded, traffic more jammed, the crime will go up, and the housing costs (of course) will skyrocket.
- arp242 1y ago
  > Bike lanes make lives actively worse for everyone. Except for ... cyclists?
  - matsemann 1y ago
    And pedestrians that then don't get cyclists on the pavements. And drivers getting less congestion. Someone seriously claiming cycle lanes is bad for a city knows little about urban planning.
    - gs17 1y ago
      > And pedestrians that then don't get cyclists on the pavements If only. Here roads with bike lanes (protected lanes!) get even more cyclists on the sidewalk. I've asked a few and they seem to trust the sidewalk to be better quality and the obstacles on sidewalk don't need them to slow down often, because people tend to jump out of the way.
enaaem 1y ago
In the 70s there were massive protests in the Netherlands called "Stop the Child Murder". Note that these protests were based on conservatism. People were used to safe streets where children could cycle independently to school, go to sports clubs and hang out with their friends around the city. Then cars came and started killing their children. At the height of the killings, 420 Children were killed per year: that is more than 1 per day. 3200 people were killed per year if you include adults. You can imagine that even more were wounded and maimed. Of course people did not accept that the automobile would destroy their traditional lifestyle and massive protests took place around the country.
- gerdesj 1y ago
  I can certainly attest that cycling around the Netherlands was a joy during the late 70s and 80s. I lived in West Germany on and off, mostly in the north and close to the border. A lot of German roads had very decent cycle lanes too. It was a bit of a shock cycling in the UK but to be fair all roads were a lot less busy back then. I also don't recall the hostility to cyclists back then that exists now. A bunch of Dutch hydo-engineers probably (there were rather a lot of skilled folk over there) assisted Somerset back around C17+ to drain and reclaim some pretty large tracts of land in the "Levels". Perhaps we need some cycle lane building assistance.
deadbabe 1y ago
[flagged]
- whateveracct 1y ago
  Cyclists switch between pedestrian and car rules at will. I see them blow stop signs and lights constantly.
  - TimorousBestie 1y ago
    In their defense, neither set of rules offers them much in the way of safety and protection.
  - analog31 1y ago
    What I've noticed is that everybody skirts rules for convenience, but the offenses are different because the conditions are different. Cars break the speed limit, look at their phones (easy to see from a cyclist's vantage point) and roll through stop signs, because those things are possible and convenient. Very few drivers are fully in control of their cars in fast, congested traffic, which is why "rear enders" seem to happen frequently. Bikes roll through stop signs and invent their own shortcuts because those are convenient, but exceeding the speed limit is impossible for most of us.
  - bichiliad 1y ago
    I’d argue that neither set of rules is made for them, so it’s not surprising that they take the most convenient of the two. Plus, it’s not out of the question to have laws in which red lights act like stop signs and stop signs act like yield signs specifically for cyclists[1]. It’s also likely less dangerous if that’s the case[2]. [1]: https://www.bicyclecolorado.org/colorado-safety-stop-becomes-law/ https://www.bicyclecolorado.org/colorado-safety-stop-becomes... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-most-accidents https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-mo...
- matsemann 1y ago
  Stats doesn't agree with you. At least in the EU this is the matrix of vehicle types and deaths: https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download/13b08542-b229-4115-b802-9409b5eb5610_en?filename=Collision%20matrix%20TOTAL%202021.pdf https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download...
woodruffw 1y ago
I think the bigger scandal in NYC isn't the removal (it was a single lane removed as part of a 15+ year back-and-forth beef), but the fact that the city isn't even close to meeting its legal obligations around constructing new lanes[1]. (That's not to say that the removal isn't shameful and nakedly for hizzoner's political gain; I just think it's not the "big" thing.) [1]: https://projects.transalt.org/bikelanes https://projects.transalt.org/bikelanes
cyberax 1y ago
> At the same time NYC and Toronto, we are removing protected bike lanes. In North America the acceptable amount of lives per year to sacrifice for a little convenience for drivers is above zero, and apparently rising. BTW, what do you think about the 5-10 extra lifetimes that people in NYC collectively waste _every_ _day_ in commute compared to smaller cities? A well-designed car-oriented city will have commutes of around 20 minutes, compared to 35-minute average commutes in NYC. So that's 30 minutes that NYC residents waste every day on average. That's one lifetime for about 1.2 million people commuting every day.
- woodruffw 1y ago
  You've sort of given it away with the "smaller cities" thing. People who live in NYC don't want to live in a smaller American-style city with suburban sprawl. (You've also glossed over the more painful statistic: for every lifetime-equivalent lost on mass transit inefficiencies, there are hundreds lost to gridlock in NYC. That number, already terrible, would be far worse without the city's mass transit -- you simply cannot support the kind of density NYC endeavors for with car-oriented development.)
  - cyberax 1y ago
    I mean, I don't hide my despair at large cities. They're destroying the fabric of the Western civilization by acting as black holes for population. > You've also glossed over the more painful statistic: for every lifetime-equivalent lost on mass transit inefficiencies, there are hundreds lost to gridlock in NYC. Here's the thing. A well-designed human-oriented city like Houston has FASTER commutes than ANY similar-sized city in Europe. The fix for cities like NYC is to stop building them and start de-densifying them.
    - masklinn 1y ago
      > well-designed human-oriented city like Houston Said no urban planner in the history of urban planning. Or NJB (https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54 https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54) > FASTER commutes than ANY similar-sized city in Europe. Houston ranks 7th worst traffic in the US. The internet tells me you’re boasting of 30mn for an “average 6 miles commute”. That’s bicycle distance and speed that you need to drive due to a broken city.
booleandilemma 1y ago
Bike lanes are kinda scary in nyc though, because bikers usually refuse to stop for red lights, creating a hazard for pedestrians. I once saw a biker yell at a pedestrian to get out of the way, even though she was the one who was going through a red light. More than once I've seen a biker almost plow into someone trying to cross the street.
- anilakar 1y ago
  When I see someone violating cycling traffic code, nine times out of ten it's an electric skateboard, rental city bike or a food delivery guy on an electric moped (legally bicycles when limited to 25 km/h). And those spandex-wearing road cyclists and commuters that motorists like to bitch about so much? The best law-abiding folks I've seen.

jeffbee 1y ago

This is a great reason to have snap elections instead of scheduled elections. Mayor Adams will scorch the earth to get the votes of a handful of extremists in his quixotic reelection attempt, and will harm lots of people in doing so.

Alive-in-2025 1y ago
How does snap elections solve this problem? You'd have less information if it happened in the next week, especially about less well known candidates. You are suggesting that elections coming in a few months leads to tricking people?
- sdenton4 1y ago
  It creates conditions for more direct accountability. There's a pretty standard pattern of getting elected, doing the more extreme things, and then giving the voters time to cool off before the election happens.
  - jerlam 1y ago
    It also prevents the election losers from lighting everything on fire on the way out.
    - jdiff 1y ago
      The pattern in the US seems to be to leave time bombs running that only detonate if you don't get re-elected, something that snap elections wouldn't help with.

zwnow 1y ago

Freedom, f* yeah

lanfeust6 1y ago

Helsinki didn't achieve this with bike lanes.

mitthrowaway2 1y ago
From the article: > Cycling and walking infrastructure has been expanded in recent years, helping to separate vulnerable road users from motor traffic. > Helsinki’s current traffic safety strategy runs from 2022 to 2026 and includes special measures to protect pedestrians, children, and cyclists.
- lanfeust6 1y ago
  With no numbers offered. Lots of cities "expanded" cycling infrastructure but can't boast that level of safety. By far the strongest distinguising factor is the speed limit. That is a mere policy that doesnt cost taxpayers billions, it works, and therefore is politically viable. "Special measures" is not just code for bike lanes either.

cyberax 1y ago

[flagged]

roer 1y ago
As someone living in Copenhagen, I respectfully disagree.
- cyberax 1y ago
  Ah yeah. It's no wonder people keep mentioning Copenhagen without telling its dirty little secret. It stayed liveable _despite_ the scourge of urbanism because a third of its population was forcibly (via economic forces) displaced during 1970-s, and it _still_ has not reached the 1969 peak: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20894/copenhagen/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20894/cope... So it was able to avoid the effects of the density-misery spiral. But it'll get to experience them soon. The transit will become more crowded, traffic more jammed, the crime will go up, and the housing costs (of course) will skyrocket.
arp242 1y ago
> Bike lanes make lives actively worse for everyone. Except for ... cyclists?
- matsemann 1y ago
  And pedestrians that then don't get cyclists on the pavements. And drivers getting less congestion. Someone seriously claiming cycle lanes is bad for a city knows little about urban planning.
  - gs17 1y ago
    > And pedestrians that then don't get cyclists on the pavements If only. Here roads with bike lanes (protected lanes!) get even more cyclists on the sidewalk. I've asked a few and they seem to trust the sidewalk to be better quality and the obstacles on sidewalk don't need them to slow down often, because people tend to jump out of the way.

enaaem 1y ago

In the 70s there were massive protests in the Netherlands called "Stop the Child Murder". Note that these protests were based on conservatism. People were used to safe streets where children could cycle independently to school, go to sports clubs and hang out with their friends around the city. Then cars came and started killing their children. At the height of the killings, 420 Children were killed per year: that is more than 1 per day. 3200 people were killed per year if you include adults. You can imagine that even more were wounded and maimed. Of course people did not accept that the automobile would destroy their traditional lifestyle and massive protests took place around the country.

gerdesj 1y ago
I can certainly attest that cycling around the Netherlands was a joy during the late 70s and 80s. I lived in West Germany on and off, mostly in the north and close to the border. A lot of German roads had very decent cycle lanes too. It was a bit of a shock cycling in the UK but to be fair all roads were a lot less busy back then. I also don't recall the hostility to cyclists back then that exists now. A bunch of Dutch hydo-engineers probably (there were rather a lot of skilled folk over there) assisted Somerset back around C17+ to drain and reclaim some pretty large tracts of land in the "Levels". Perhaps we need some cycle lane building assistance.

deadbabe 1y ago

[flagged]

whateveracct 1y ago
Cyclists switch between pedestrian and car rules at will. I see them blow stop signs and lights constantly.
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  In their defense, neither set of rules offers them much in the way of safety and protection.
- analog31 1y ago
  What I've noticed is that everybody skirts rules for convenience, but the offenses are different because the conditions are different. Cars break the speed limit, look at their phones (easy to see from a cyclist's vantage point) and roll through stop signs, because those things are possible and convenient. Very few drivers are fully in control of their cars in fast, congested traffic, which is why "rear enders" seem to happen frequently. Bikes roll through stop signs and invent their own shortcuts because those are convenient, but exceeding the speed limit is impossible for most of us.
- bichiliad 1y ago
  I’d argue that neither set of rules is made for them, so it’s not surprising that they take the most convenient of the two. Plus, it’s not out of the question to have laws in which red lights act like stop signs and stop signs act like yield signs specifically for cyclists[1]. It’s also likely less dangerous if that’s the case[2]. [1]: https://www.bicyclecolorado.org/colorado-safety-stop-becomes-law/ https://www.bicyclecolorado.org/colorado-safety-stop-becomes... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-most-accidents https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-mo...
matsemann 1y ago
Stats doesn't agree with you. At least in the EU this is the matrix of vehicle types and deaths: https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download/13b08542-b229-4115-b802-9409b5eb5610_en?filename=Collision%20matrix%20TOTAL%202021.pdf https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/document/download...

woodruffw 1y ago

I think the bigger scandal in NYC isn't the removal (it was a single lane removed as part of a 15+ year back-and-forth beef), but the fact that the city isn't even close to meeting its legal obligations around constructing new lanes[1]. (That's not to say that the removal isn't shameful and nakedly for hizzoner's political gain; I just think it's not the "big" thing.) [1]: https://projects.transalt.org/bikelanes https://projects.transalt.org/bikelanes

cyberax 1y ago

> At the same time NYC and Toronto, we are removing protected bike lanes. In North America the acceptable amount of lives per year to sacrifice for a little convenience for drivers is above zero, and apparently rising. BTW, what do you think about the 5-10 extra lifetimes that people in NYC collectively waste _every_ _day_ in commute compared to smaller cities? A well-designed car-oriented city will have commutes of around 20 minutes, compared to 35-minute average commutes in NYC. So that's 30 minutes that NYC residents waste every day on average. That's one lifetime for about 1.2 million people commuting every day.

woodruffw 1y ago
You've sort of given it away with the "smaller cities" thing. People who live in NYC don't want to live in a smaller American-style city with suburban sprawl. (You've also glossed over the more painful statistic: for every lifetime-equivalent lost on mass transit inefficiencies, there are hundreds lost to gridlock in NYC. That number, already terrible, would be far worse without the city's mass transit -- you simply cannot support the kind of density NYC endeavors for with car-oriented development.)
- cyberax 1y ago
  I mean, I don't hide my despair at large cities. They're destroying the fabric of the Western civilization by acting as black holes for population. > You've also glossed over the more painful statistic: for every lifetime-equivalent lost on mass transit inefficiencies, there are hundreds lost to gridlock in NYC. Here's the thing. A well-designed human-oriented city like Houston has FASTER commutes than ANY similar-sized city in Europe. The fix for cities like NYC is to stop building them and start de-densifying them.
  - masklinn 1y ago
    > well-designed human-oriented city like Houston Said no urban planner in the history of urban planning. Or NJB (https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54 https://youtu.be/uxykI30fS54) > FASTER commutes than ANY similar-sized city in Europe. Houston ranks 7th worst traffic in the US. The internet tells me you’re boasting of 30mn for an “average 6 miles commute”. That’s bicycle distance and speed that you need to drive due to a broken city.

booleandilemma 1y ago

Bike lanes are kinda scary in nyc though, because bikers usually refuse to stop for red lights, creating a hazard for pedestrians. I once saw a biker yell at a pedestrian to get out of the way, even though she was the one who was going through a red light. More than once I've seen a biker almost plow into someone trying to cross the street.

anilakar 1y ago
When I see someone violating cycling traffic code, nine times out of ten it's an electric skateboard, rental city bike or a food delivery guy on an electric moped (legally bicycles when limited to 25 km/h). And those spandex-wearing road cyclists and commuters that motorists like to bitch about so much? The best law-abiding folks I've seen.