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This isn't true in the US. Young people in US consume much more of those things you listed than people over 40 did at the same age. Young people have more purc

This isn't true in the US. Young people in US consume much more of those things you listed than people over 40 did at the same age. Young people have more purchasing power than previous generations. EDIT: Data from the fed and payroll providers show this overwhelmingly to be the case, but just to add some color/anecdote. I found all of the first jobs I had in highschool and just after. 3/3 of my first roles now advertise a minimum salary over twice what I was paid 14-18 years ago. Prices have gone up around 20-30% since then overall so I would have had 40% more purchasing power today with the same jobs.

kjkjadksj 1y ago
A night out literally costs 5x as much as 10 years ago
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  First, young people make a lot more than they did 10 years ago (both nominally and inflation adjusted). Second, no it does not cost 5x as much, closer to 15-20% more based on all the data I could find. Anecdotally in San Francisco, NYC, and Austin it is maybe 2x more at the most expensive places. EDIT: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    This would be more convincing if you quoted data. Nothing on FRED suggests you're correct.
    - mgraczyk 1y ago
      Here's men 16-24 showing 20% increase after CPI adjustment https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q
      - chongli 1y ago
        The CPI is misleading because it does silly things such as counting increases in CPU speed as “getting more computing for your money.” If all you use your computer for is word processing then you’re really not getting 1000x “more computing” for your money today than you were in the 1980s, you’re getting only minor increases in productivity.
        nradov 1y ago
        If all you use your computer for is word processing then you can buy a low-end desktop for very little money. Computers (and other consumer electronics) are cheaper now than they have ever been. Uninformed whining about hedonic adjustments in CPI is so tiresome.
        chongli 1y ago
        How many average home computer users are 1000X more productive with a computer today than they were with a 1980s computer? The CPI is the consumer price index. It doesn’t cover business uses of computers which take more advantage of the improved performance.
        nradov 1y ago
        The CPI doesn't measure productivity so I have no idea what point you think you're making.
        chongli 1y ago
        No it measures CPU speed, memory, etc under the assumption that scaling these provide some kind of tangible benefit to warrant the idea that we’re getting “more computer for less money” but these benefits are clearly nowhere even close to a linear relationship with CPU speed. Productivity was an example of a benefit I chose off the cuff but you could choose others. Are today’s video game consoles 1000X more fun than a NES? Given that many people actually prefer old NES games and are even willing to pay inflated prices to collect them suggests the answer is a resounding no.
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    >"First, young people make a lot more than they did 10 years ago (both nominally and inflation adjusted)." I need a source on this, like [1], and I need you to also share the cost-of-living average increases, which PLAINLY show that despite wages increasing, the increasing costs for goods and services within that same time period have outpaced wage increase percentages [2][3]. And don't be a typical HN-crowder and say ANYTHING about wages in our industries — it's white-collar work, and a functioning society sees to accomplishing an ever-progressing standard of living for members in ALL sectors of the status-quo 'bell curve'. Shit, even average household income is down 2k from 6 years ago [4] 1 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU0500000003 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU0500000003 2 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA 3 - https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/annual-family-premiums-for-employer-coverage-rise-7-to-average-25572-in-2024-benchmark-survey-finds-after-also-rising-7-last-year/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/annual-family... 4 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
    - mgraczyk 1y ago
      Any source will do, here is the Atlanta fed https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker Click "age" Then compare to price levels. Wages have outpaced price levels for this age group significantly Here's men 16-24 showing 20% increase after CPI adjustment https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q EDIT: the data you shared is not specific to "young people", that's why it's different. While everyone's wages are up over the last 10 years relative to prices (according to the data you shared), young people have gained much more
      - HaZeust 1y ago
        Rent, household items, cost of external activities, and health insurance (sometimes, see parents' insurance plans) are still subject to that group - which my sources show clear outpacing for - even with youth's increase in wages. For someone that lives with their parents and works full time, yeah - they've probably never had it better. But a lot of youth right now have expenses drawn out in such a way where, even if they're making more than their predecessors, they have less upwards mobility for today, let alone any potential to invest in assets that afford them any upwards mobility in the future.
  - kjkjadksj 1y ago
    Drinks are like $15-20 now. 15 years ago I was getting double wells for like $2-5. Bars had actual legit specials too like dollar beers. Uber 10 years ago would be like $7 at the most.
    - mgraczyk 1y ago
      Uber basically didn't exist 10 years ago and was insanely VC subsidized. Compare cab prices. Drinks in some places are more, other places have not increased as much. You basically couldn't find a $5 drink in SF in 2015. You can still find $2 drinks in Austin today
- 9rx 1y ago
  That's because the night starts way earlier than it used to. The data is abundantly clear about that. Back in my day you didn't even leave home for a night out before 11PM. You couldn't spend that much even if you tried before everything was closed and there was nowhere left to spend. Young people today, on the other hand, are favouring starting the night out in the early evening, even the afternoon. A night out may cost 5x more, but the same night out doesn't.
  - kjkjadksj 1y ago
    The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then. It was college. Some bars had specials starting at 1pm. People would be there with their backpacks on still straight from class. People would get off work and immediately drink. We’d usually be drinking for at least 5 hours before we started crawling bars. On weekends we’d drink literally the entire day. We’d duct tape cases of beer to our chest and wouldn’t remove them until they were all drank or stolen from us.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then. The drinking started much earlier. Typically you'd drink at home first so that you were already drunk on cheap liquor. Sure, if you had a place nearby that had specials that could compete with the cost of drinking at home, you might opt for that instead, but there is no material difference found in that. What is key here is that people did everything they could to keep the cost down, limiting the high cost experience associated with going out to just a couple of hours before everything closed down. The "YOLO youth" of today don't care. Some researchers have suggested that because they feel they have no future they have no qualms about spending today, but whatever the exact mechanics of are it is clear that they aren't trying to pinch pennies like previous generations did. They are almost certainly spending 5x more, but that is buying them an entirely different night out as compared to what people were accustomed to in the past. The same night out isn't 5x more expensive. Not in any way, shape, or form.
dv_dt 1y ago
How much is paid to go out is different than the amount of time spent out though
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  Sorry I do not understand what that means. You're talking about opportunity cost? In what sense is "time spent" economic?
  - dv_dt 1y ago
    If the cost per hour to say, go to the movies has tripled, but attendance has gone down by half, then by cost, more movie entertainment is being consumed than ever before, but the number of people and number of hours participating in the activity has actually gone down
    - mgraczyk 1y ago
      The best data I could find shows a decline of around 25% from 2006 to 2023 in restaurant visits. However, a big portion of this is because of meal delivery which is more expensive than restaurants, so the cause is probably not mostly increased cost. Other related things like concert attendance have gone up. My take is that the main reason young people don't go out is not price, they often seem to be making choices that cost more when they avoid going out
oneeyedpigeon 1y ago
Are you taking into account the biggest drain on young people's finances, accommodation? I would be amazed if young people today had as much disposable income as they did 20 or 30 years ago.
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  Yeah I'm taking that into account
terribleperson 1y ago
A 20-30% increase in prices does not match what I've observed. Restaurant prices are up 50-100% over the past decade. This isn't hard to check: look at old and new menu photos on yelp. Banh mi have gone from $3 to $6 in less than ten years. My local gas station mexican place (which has excellent food) has seem a price increase of 50% since 2019 and more like 100% since 2016. Coffee ditto, but luckily I don't buy coffee out. Fast food is actually the worst offender of all, with fast food prices up more like 3-5x over ten years. Grocery prices are similar: Meat prices are up roughly 50% in ten years or more from my perspective. Googling, it's actually worse: chicken is up almost 100%, beef is up 45%. Staples like rice and bread are also up ~50%.
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  Your observations are limited, if you average over large enough an area you will see a different story
  - audinobs 1y ago
    I think you are right but the expectations of young people are up much more. These are all relative valuations with your pears and expectations. No one cares we are all vastly more wealthy than people living a 100 years ago. People know how much Jamie Dimon is worth. No one cares they basically have more abundance today than JP Morgan himself. It is also the difference that when I was in my 20s I had no illusions that I was going to become Michael Jackson or a popular TV sitcom actor since I never danced, sang or acted. Now though you do have that anxiety since people your own age are famous and wealthy from nothing more than network effects. When I was in my 20s the only people that seemed to have disposable income were drug dealers lol. It was easy to not feel anxiety that I wasn't as well off as a drug dealer.
  - terribleperson 1y ago
    If you look up data, you will see my observations matched by readily-available data, other than the claim about fast food prices. Fast food prices have still risen much faster than inflation, but 5x is only true if you examine the cheaper menu items and becomes more obvious when you pay attention to menu item replacements and changes. On the other hand, your claim that prices have risen 20-30% since 14-18 years ago doesn't even hold up to BLS inflation numbers. Try 46-59%. edit: I'm also wrong about rice. Rice commodity prices are the same as 2015, retail price is up 15%. I will say that if you don't shop at the right places, though, you're now getting gouged on the rice.
fugalfervor 1y ago
> I found all of the first jobs I had in highschool and just after. 3/3 of my first roles now advertise a minimum salary over twice what I was paid 14-18 years ago. Prices have gone up around 20-30% since then overall so I would have had 40% more purchasing power today with the same jobs. Holy Anecdote, Batman!
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  From the line before: > Data from the fed and payroll providers show this overwhelmingly to be the case, but just to add some color/anecdote.
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    >proceeds to not link any of this data and expects everyone to just take their word for it.
audinobs 1y ago
That is because there has been tremendous stagnation in wages outside of software in the middle. Huge compression between the middle and min wage. My first job as a cook pays basically the same as what my first processional job pays now. It was a huge win for me at the time and now would have been no raise at all. I think this is expressed in the jump in housing prices since covid too. So young people have better purchasing power besides for the one thing everyone wants.

kjkjadksj 1y ago

A night out literally costs 5x as much as 10 years ago

mgraczyk 1y ago
First, young people make a lot more than they did 10 years ago (both nominally and inflation adjusted). Second, no it does not cost 5x as much, closer to 15-20% more based on all the data I could find. Anecdotally in San Francisco, NYC, and Austin it is maybe 2x more at the most expensive places. EDIT: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  This would be more convincing if you quoted data. Nothing on FRED suggests you're correct.
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    Here's men 16-24 showing 20% increase after CPI adjustment https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q
    - chongli 1y ago
      The CPI is misleading because it does silly things such as counting increases in CPU speed as “getting more computing for your money.” If all you use your computer for is word processing then you’re really not getting 1000x “more computing” for your money today than you were in the 1980s, you’re getting only minor increases in productivity.
      - nradov 1y ago
        If all you use your computer for is word processing then you can buy a low-end desktop for very little money. Computers (and other consumer electronics) are cheaper now than they have ever been. Uninformed whining about hedonic adjustments in CPI is so tiresome.
        chongli 1y ago
        How many average home computer users are 1000X more productive with a computer today than they were with a 1980s computer? The CPI is the consumer price index. It doesn’t cover business uses of computers which take more advantage of the improved performance.
        nradov 1y ago
        The CPI doesn't measure productivity so I have no idea what point you think you're making.
        chongli 1y ago
        No it measures CPU speed, memory, etc under the assumption that scaling these provide some kind of tangible benefit to warrant the idea that we’re getting “more computer for less money” but these benefits are clearly nowhere even close to a linear relationship with CPU speed. Productivity was an example of a benefit I chose off the cuff but you could choose others. Are today’s video game consoles 1000X more fun than a NES? Given that many people actually prefer old NES games and are even willing to pay inflated prices to collect them suggests the answer is a resounding no.
- HaZeust 1y ago
  >"First, young people make a lot more than they did 10 years ago (both nominally and inflation adjusted)." I need a source on this, like [1], and I need you to also share the cost-of-living average increases, which PLAINLY show that despite wages increasing, the increasing costs for goods and services within that same time period have outpaced wage increase percentages [2][3]. And don't be a typical HN-crowder and say ANYTHING about wages in our industries — it's white-collar work, and a functioning society sees to accomplishing an ever-progressing standard of living for members in ALL sectors of the status-quo 'bell curve'. Shit, even average household income is down 2k from 6 years ago [4] 1 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU0500000003 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU0500000003 2 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA 3 - https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/annual-family-premiums-for-employer-coverage-rise-7-to-average-25572-in-2024-benchmark-survey-finds-after-also-rising-7-last-year/ https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/annual-family... 4 - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    Any source will do, here is the Atlanta fed https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker Click "age" Then compare to price levels. Wages have outpaced price levels for this age group significantly Here's men 16-24 showing 20% increase after CPI adjustment https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LEU0252882200Q EDIT: the data you shared is not specific to "young people", that's why it's different. While everyone's wages are up over the last 10 years relative to prices (according to the data you shared), young people have gained much more
    - HaZeust 1y ago
      Rent, household items, cost of external activities, and health insurance (sometimes, see parents' insurance plans) are still subject to that group - which my sources show clear outpacing for - even with youth's increase in wages. For someone that lives with their parents and works full time, yeah - they've probably never had it better. But a lot of youth right now have expenses drawn out in such a way where, even if they're making more than their predecessors, they have less upwards mobility for today, let alone any potential to invest in assets that afford them any upwards mobility in the future.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  Drinks are like $15-20 now. 15 years ago I was getting double wells for like $2-5. Bars had actual legit specials too like dollar beers. Uber 10 years ago would be like $7 at the most.
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    Uber basically didn't exist 10 years ago and was insanely VC subsidized. Compare cab prices. Drinks in some places are more, other places have not increased as much. You basically couldn't find a $5 drink in SF in 2015. You can still find $2 drinks in Austin today
9rx 1y ago
That's because the night starts way earlier than it used to. The data is abundantly clear about that. Back in my day you didn't even leave home for a night out before 11PM. You couldn't spend that much even if you tried before everything was closed and there was nowhere left to spend. Young people today, on the other hand, are favouring starting the night out in the early evening, even the afternoon. A night out may cost 5x more, but the same night out doesn't.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then. It was college. Some bars had specials starting at 1pm. People would be there with their backpacks on still straight from class. People would get off work and immediately drink. We’d usually be drinking for at least 5 hours before we started crawling bars. On weekends we’d drink literally the entire day. We’d duct tape cases of beer to our chest and wouldn’t remove them until they were all drank or stolen from us.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then. The drinking started much earlier. Typically you'd drink at home first so that you were already drunk on cheap liquor. Sure, if you had a place nearby that had specials that could compete with the cost of drinking at home, you might opt for that instead, but there is no material difference found in that. What is key here is that people did everything they could to keep the cost down, limiting the high cost experience associated with going out to just a couple of hours before everything closed down. The "YOLO youth" of today don't care. Some researchers have suggested that because they feel they have no future they have no qualms about spending today, but whatever the exact mechanics of are it is clear that they aren't trying to pinch pennies like previous generations did. They are almost certainly spending 5x more, but that is buying them an entirely different night out as compared to what people were accustomed to in the past. The same night out isn't 5x more expensive. Not in any way, shape, or form.

dv_dt 1y ago

How much is paid to go out is different than the amount of time spent out though

mgraczyk 1y ago
Sorry I do not understand what that means. You're talking about opportunity cost? In what sense is "time spent" economic?
- dv_dt 1y ago
  If the cost per hour to say, go to the movies has tripled, but attendance has gone down by half, then by cost, more movie entertainment is being consumed than ever before, but the number of people and number of hours participating in the activity has actually gone down
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    The best data I could find shows a decline of around 25% from 2006 to 2023 in restaurant visits. However, a big portion of this is because of meal delivery which is more expensive than restaurants, so the cause is probably not mostly increased cost. Other related things like concert attendance have gone up. My take is that the main reason young people don't go out is not price, they often seem to be making choices that cost more when they avoid going out

oneeyedpigeon 1y ago

Are you taking into account the biggest drain on young people's finances, accommodation? I would be amazed if young people today had as much disposable income as they did 20 or 30 years ago.

mgraczyk 1y ago
Yeah I'm taking that into account

terribleperson 1y ago

A 20-30% increase in prices does not match what I've observed. Restaurant prices are up 50-100% over the past decade. This isn't hard to check: look at old and new menu photos on yelp. Banh mi have gone from $3 to $6 in less than ten years. My local gas station mexican place (which has excellent food) has seem a price increase of 50% since 2019 and more like 100% since 2016. Coffee ditto, but luckily I don't buy coffee out. Fast food is actually the worst offender of all, with fast food prices up more like 3-5x over ten years. Grocery prices are similar: Meat prices are up roughly 50% in ten years or more from my perspective. Googling, it's actually worse: chicken is up almost 100%, beef is up 45%. Staples like rice and bread are also up ~50%.

mgraczyk 1y ago
Your observations are limited, if you average over large enough an area you will see a different story
- audinobs 1y ago
  I think you are right but the expectations of young people are up much more. These are all relative valuations with your pears and expectations. No one cares we are all vastly more wealthy than people living a 100 years ago. People know how much Jamie Dimon is worth. No one cares they basically have more abundance today than JP Morgan himself. It is also the difference that when I was in my 20s I had no illusions that I was going to become Michael Jackson or a popular TV sitcom actor since I never danced, sang or acted. Now though you do have that anxiety since people your own age are famous and wealthy from nothing more than network effects. When I was in my 20s the only people that seemed to have disposable income were drug dealers lol. It was easy to not feel anxiety that I wasn't as well off as a drug dealer.
- terribleperson 1y ago
  If you look up data, you will see my observations matched by readily-available data, other than the claim about fast food prices. Fast food prices have still risen much faster than inflation, but 5x is only true if you examine the cheaper menu items and becomes more obvious when you pay attention to menu item replacements and changes. On the other hand, your claim that prices have risen 20-30% since 14-18 years ago doesn't even hold up to BLS inflation numbers. Try 46-59%. edit: I'm also wrong about rice. Rice commodity prices are the same as 2015, retail price is up 15%. I will say that if you don't shop at the right places, though, you're now getting gouged on the rice.

fugalfervor 1y ago

> I found all of the first jobs I had in highschool and just after. 3/3 of my first roles now advertise a minimum salary over twice what I was paid 14-18 years ago. Prices have gone up around 20-30% since then overall so I would have had 40% more purchasing power today with the same jobs. Holy Anecdote, Batman!

mgraczyk 1y ago
From the line before: > Data from the fed and payroll providers show this overwhelmingly to be the case, but just to add some color/anecdote.
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  >proceeds to not link any of this data and expects everyone to just take their word for it.

audinobs 1y ago

That is because there has been tremendous stagnation in wages outside of software in the middle. Huge compression between the middle and min wage. My first job as a cook pays basically the same as what my first processional job pays now. It was a huge win for me at the time and now would have been no raise at all. I think this is expressed in the jump in housing prices since covid too. So young people have better purchasing power besides for the one thing everyone wants.