4 ms·

This idea of pretending that your only option is $15 cocktails really makes this argument look lame. Not to mention that the federal minimum wage is basically i

This idea of pretending that your only option is $15 cocktails really makes this argument look lame. Not to mention that the federal minimum wage is basically irrelevant in most places - where I live starting entry level pay at McDonald's is $17/hr. Cocktails were expensive when I was young, too. We just hardly ever drank them. We went to the liquor store and bought the cheapest shit we could that probably had a 50/50 chance of making us go blind.

SoftTalker 1y ago
I worked at McDonald's in the 1980s. Started at $3.25/hr never made more than about $5/hr before I moved on. Cocktails at a bar were about the same price relative to that as they are now. We drank the cheapest swill beer they had on draft. It was about being there with your friends, not drinking some froo-froo cocktails.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  My take on this: life is actually a lot harder for young people than when we were kids. There is less opportunity for upwardly mobile advancement, and social media has essentially wrecked people's brains (adults included). I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option - it just doesn't occur to a lot of young people, but in many respects a lot of them never learned this skill as kids. Tons of studies have shown kids have a lot less "unstructured play" time than they used to. But then given that stuff is actually harder, I think blaming "stuff is just too expensive" is simply easier. Otherwise it forces you to confront the fact that a lot of this stuff is in your control.
  - marcosdumay 1y ago
    > I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option Young people don't have space on their houses.
    - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
      Again, I have to chuckle when I hear these excuses. When I was young in mid 90s we would all pile in to someone's 400 square foot studio apartment. I'm not blaming young people today for not seeing this as an option. But it is the case that lots of folks have/had a lot less space and didn't see that as any barrier to hanging out.
      - chickensong 1y ago
        So many excuses. You don't even need someone with an apartment. Just pick an out of the way location and converge. Went to many a party back in the day out on an untraveled road. We didn't even have mobile phones to coordinate.
        soulofmischief 1y ago
        In high school we regularly threw 100+ person parties under bridges and along the river, in random lots, wherever we could, really. However, it required a lot of coordination and trust between a lot of people to avoid surprise police encounters, and the local police personally had me and some of my associates on their shitlist which further complicated things. It was an environment I thrived in, but I wouldn't want my child to have to encounter the same level of risk and paranoia just to hang out with their friends.
        chickensong 1y ago
        I hear you, the police were often an issue once the party got to a certain size. But throwing a rager will always have some risk, and seems far beyond just hanging out with friends.
      - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
        [dead]
      - marcosdumay 1y ago
        So, 40m^2? That's around the size of the home one can buy in my city nowadays with the top 1% income...
newsclues 1y ago
Does working at McDonalds for $17 pay the rent/bills and still give you enough spending money to live a decent lifestyle? I make $20/h as a cleaner but after bills etc, I don’t have the money for fun events, dining out or socializing beyond hanging out on discord and playing games.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  Thank you so much for this comment, because it perfectly highlights the point I was trying to make. When I was a young person in the mid 90s, I (and most of my friends) made the equivalent or less of what you make now. But we also didn't have discord or Internet multiplayer games, so we were basically forced to go hang out in person and find other cheap stuff to do.
  - soulofmischief 1y ago
    You have to take into account the fact that rent and other necessities have exploded in relative cost. In the eighties I might save up months or even 1-2 years for a nice television set, but my rent/mortgage, food, etc. was relatively inexpensive. Now, I can go buy 15-20 decent televisions a month for the same amount it costs me to pay my rent or mortgage here on a 0-2 bedroom place, and I live in a shithole backwoods state, not San Francisco.
    - to11mtm 1y ago
      Yep, and it's only accelerated. > In the eighties I might save up months or even 1-2 years for a nice television set I remember times from the late 80s and early 90s where my parents would have to save up to repair the VCR, or that time we had to get the PC Monitor repaired; back then the 100-200$ in repair costs was way cheaper than 'buying a new one'. First house I rented starting in 2007 was 500 a month [0]. Our first Flatscreen TV that we got in 2008 was somewhere between 700-800$ (37 inch 720p). Then, in 2015 I bought a 40(?) inch 4K tv to celebrate a promotion for myself. Since that was the 'new-ish tech' I spent about 500$, vs the 425$/mo I was paying for a room that could barely fit a Queen bed in a 'shared household' [1] In 2017, I was able to rent an 800 sq foot apartment for I think about 900$ a month. The 50 inch 1080P TV for the living room was somehow only 200$ tho, I guess that was a plus... ... As an odd contrast to the thought about repairing versus replacing earlier... a colleague recently asked me for some advice; His wife's iPhone screen was cracked. He was wondering of good shops to check out, because the labor cost in the US dwarfs the shipping cost of him sending it back to India and having family get it fixed there and shipping back to the US. ----- I think COVID really fucked a lot up in the US, vis a vis the unemployment stimulus. People got 600$ a week on top of normal state unemployment; I remember White Castle was offering 15$/hr base (I say that because some fast food restaurants would say '15/hr' with a little star saying that was only for management/etc) to get workers in the door. I suppose it was an interesting experiment in trying out UBI, on one hand people seemed 'happier', on the other hand it probably contributed to the influencer epidemic since suddenly a bunch of people had nothing better to do. I also think at least in the US, the fast whiplash of interest rates has had a profound impact on a lot of companies balance sheets and pricing in some cases has been adjusted to avoid borrowing more money or pay off existing debts. It also provided terrible signalling/forecasting for manufacturers of certain goods; I know specifically for vehicles, far too many people just went along with stupid 'market adjustments' from dealers because the at or near 0% financing 'softened the blow'. Then the manufacturers themselves decided they wanted more of that pie and started raising prices too... Or at best bought into the 'look at EV Margins' while forgetting the point that EV prices need to drop for mass adoption. There's also the challenge of this 3.5+ year Russian invasion shitshow; It puts an impact on a lot of pricing both directly (e.x. grain but also wiring harnesses for cars, go figure) and indirectly (countries having to send support, even if frequently half-assed and thus prolonging the problem, that diverts money from other things.) And we haven't even gotten into the impact on tariffs yet... not really anyway... [0] - Although, that was at a bit of a 'discount' since the landlord knew us for years and that we would be good tenants. Also that 800 sq foot house ironically cost more to heat in the winter than any other place I lived since... [1] - Other people in the house later informed me I was paying 200$/mo more than them for less space than they got, so not that good a deal TBH, but was cheaper than other options... [2] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS , look at the difference in slope on the 10 year view for the great recession vs COVID.
soulofmischief 1y ago
The beers here are $5-12 per beer if you go out. All I did was describe factual information: my local minimum wage, how things to do that don't cost money and are accessible to the average youth here are becoming increasingly rare, how much it costs to drink vs. minimum wage. None of this is an argument, it's a fact. And yes I know, people could and should be more frugal: I only even drink more than single cocktail at a time 0-3 times a year on average, so my personal financial frustrations lie elsewhere. I guess it's just important because we're comparing lifestyles from different points in history, and in the old days, going out drinking with your pals was a cheaper affair, and it still is the usual activity chosen for socializing where I live.
- vel0city 1y ago
  The margaritas at the places I go to are often $3 for a large. Lots of places will have cheap "domestic" beers for $2. Fancy craft beers can be had for $7-10. And that's after COVID price hikes. Less than a decade ago I'd get $2 craft pints often if you knew where to go. I'm in one of the largest metros in the US. Yes, there are plenty of places that will charge $12 for a beer. I don't go there. I can get the same beer cheaper down the street and have a more entertaining crowd.
  - soulofmischief 1y ago
    I don't live in one of the largest metros in the US, and we don't have many places like that. There are none that I know of. Not every place is the same. Things were better pre-COVID, I had a spot I could get $2 pitchers of bud and 50 cents an oyster on Monday nights at a local watering hole. Weekends, not so much, you get overcharged. But, COVID did away with that and now my city is almost as expensive as major metros in California while having absolutely none of the benefits those cities offer.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  They're irrelevant facts. Who cares what the federal minimum wage is if anyone who walks in to get a job at McDonald's can make twice as much? Who cares if beers are $5-12 at some places if they're much cheaper elsewhere? The entire point I was making, and the which you are trying to deny by your argument (you may have quoted some factual info, but you're putting it together to make a specific argument to back up your opinion), is that it's actually not that hard to go out and entertain yourself, in person, with friends, for cheap or free.

SoftTalker 1y ago

I worked at McDonald's in the 1980s. Started at $3.25/hr never made more than about $5/hr before I moved on. Cocktails at a bar were about the same price relative to that as they are now. We drank the cheapest swill beer they had on draft. It was about being there with your friends, not drinking some froo-froo cocktails.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
My take on this: life is actually a lot harder for young people than when we were kids. There is less opportunity for upwardly mobile advancement, and social media has essentially wrecked people's brains (adults included). I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option - it just doesn't occur to a lot of young people, but in many respects a lot of them never learned this skill as kids. Tons of studies have shown kids have a lot less "unstructured play" time than they used to. But then given that stuff is actually harder, I think blaming "stuff is just too expensive" is simply easier. Otherwise it forces you to confront the fact that a lot of this stuff is in your control.
- marcosdumay 1y ago
  > I complained that I think it's sad that a lot of young people don't just see "going over to friends' houses to hang out" as a primary option Young people don't have space on their houses.
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    Again, I have to chuckle when I hear these excuses. When I was young in mid 90s we would all pile in to someone's 400 square foot studio apartment. I'm not blaming young people today for not seeing this as an option. But it is the case that lots of folks have/had a lot less space and didn't see that as any barrier to hanging out.
    - chickensong 1y ago
      So many excuses. You don't even need someone with an apartment. Just pick an out of the way location and converge. Went to many a party back in the day out on an untraveled road. We didn't even have mobile phones to coordinate.
      - soulofmischief 1y ago
        In high school we regularly threw 100+ person parties under bridges and along the river, in random lots, wherever we could, really. However, it required a lot of coordination and trust between a lot of people to avoid surprise police encounters, and the local police personally had me and some of my associates on their shitlist which further complicated things. It was an environment I thrived in, but I wouldn't want my child to have to encounter the same level of risk and paranoia just to hang out with their friends.
        chickensong 1y ago
        I hear you, the police were often an issue once the party got to a certain size. But throwing a rager will always have some risk, and seems far beyond just hanging out with friends.
    - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
      [dead]
    - marcosdumay 1y ago
      So, 40m^2? That's around the size of the home one can buy in my city nowadays with the top 1% income...

newsclues 1y ago

Does working at McDonalds for $17 pay the rent/bills and still give you enough spending money to live a decent lifestyle? I make $20/h as a cleaner but after bills etc, I don’t have the money for fun events, dining out or socializing beyond hanging out on discord and playing games.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
Thank you so much for this comment, because it perfectly highlights the point I was trying to make. When I was a young person in the mid 90s, I (and most of my friends) made the equivalent or less of what you make now. But we also didn't have discord or Internet multiplayer games, so we were basically forced to go hang out in person and find other cheap stuff to do.
- soulofmischief 1y ago
  You have to take into account the fact that rent and other necessities have exploded in relative cost. In the eighties I might save up months or even 1-2 years for a nice television set, but my rent/mortgage, food, etc. was relatively inexpensive. Now, I can go buy 15-20 decent televisions a month for the same amount it costs me to pay my rent or mortgage here on a 0-2 bedroom place, and I live in a shithole backwoods state, not San Francisco.
  - to11mtm 1y ago
    Yep, and it's only accelerated. > In the eighties I might save up months or even 1-2 years for a nice television set I remember times from the late 80s and early 90s where my parents would have to save up to repair the VCR, or that time we had to get the PC Monitor repaired; back then the 100-200$ in repair costs was way cheaper than 'buying a new one'. First house I rented starting in 2007 was 500 a month [0]. Our first Flatscreen TV that we got in 2008 was somewhere between 700-800$ (37 inch 720p). Then, in 2015 I bought a 40(?) inch 4K tv to celebrate a promotion for myself. Since that was the 'new-ish tech' I spent about 500$, vs the 425$/mo I was paying for a room that could barely fit a Queen bed in a 'shared household' [1] In 2017, I was able to rent an 800 sq foot apartment for I think about 900$ a month. The 50 inch 1080P TV for the living room was somehow only 200$ tho, I guess that was a plus... ... As an odd contrast to the thought about repairing versus replacing earlier... a colleague recently asked me for some advice; His wife's iPhone screen was cracked. He was wondering of good shops to check out, because the labor cost in the US dwarfs the shipping cost of him sending it back to India and having family get it fixed there and shipping back to the US. ----- I think COVID really fucked a lot up in the US, vis a vis the unemployment stimulus. People got 600$ a week on top of normal state unemployment; I remember White Castle was offering 15$/hr base (I say that because some fast food restaurants would say '15/hr' with a little star saying that was only for management/etc) to get workers in the door. I suppose it was an interesting experiment in trying out UBI, on one hand people seemed 'happier', on the other hand it probably contributed to the influencer epidemic since suddenly a bunch of people had nothing better to do. I also think at least in the US, the fast whiplash of interest rates has had a profound impact on a lot of companies balance sheets and pricing in some cases has been adjusted to avoid borrowing more money or pay off existing debts. It also provided terrible signalling/forecasting for manufacturers of certain goods; I know specifically for vehicles, far too many people just went along with stupid 'market adjustments' from dealers because the at or near 0% financing 'softened the blow'. Then the manufacturers themselves decided they wanted more of that pie and started raising prices too... Or at best bought into the 'look at EV Margins' while forgetting the point that EV prices need to drop for mass adoption. There's also the challenge of this 3.5+ year Russian invasion shitshow; It puts an impact on a lot of pricing both directly (e.x. grain but also wiring harnesses for cars, go figure) and indirectly (countries having to send support, even if frequently half-assed and thus prolonging the problem, that diverts money from other things.) And we haven't even gotten into the impact on tariffs yet... not really anyway... [0] - Although, that was at a bit of a 'discount' since the landlord knew us for years and that we would be good tenants. Also that 800 sq foot house ironically cost more to heat in the winter than any other place I lived since... [1] - Other people in the house later informed me I was paying 200$/mo more than them for less space than they got, so not that good a deal TBH, but was cheaper than other options... [2] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS , look at the difference in slope on the 10 year view for the great recession vs COVID.

soulofmischief 1y ago

The beers here are $5-12 per beer if you go out. All I did was describe factual information: my local minimum wage, how things to do that don't cost money and are accessible to the average youth here are becoming increasingly rare, how much it costs to drink vs. minimum wage. None of this is an argument, it's a fact. And yes I know, people could and should be more frugal: I only even drink more than single cocktail at a time 0-3 times a year on average, so my personal financial frustrations lie elsewhere. I guess it's just important because we're comparing lifestyles from different points in history, and in the old days, going out drinking with your pals was a cheaper affair, and it still is the usual activity chosen for socializing where I live.

vel0city 1y ago
The margaritas at the places I go to are often $3 for a large. Lots of places will have cheap "domestic" beers for $2. Fancy craft beers can be had for $7-10. And that's after COVID price hikes. Less than a decade ago I'd get $2 craft pints often if you knew where to go. I'm in one of the largest metros in the US. Yes, there are plenty of places that will charge $12 for a beer. I don't go there. I can get the same beer cheaper down the street and have a more entertaining crowd.
- soulofmischief 1y ago
  I don't live in one of the largest metros in the US, and we don't have many places like that. There are none that I know of. Not every place is the same. Things were better pre-COVID, I had a spot I could get $2 pitchers of bud and 50 cents an oyster on Monday nights at a local watering hole. Weekends, not so much, you get overcharged. But, COVID did away with that and now my city is almost as expensive as major metros in California while having absolutely none of the benefits those cities offer.
hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
They're irrelevant facts. Who cares what the federal minimum wage is if anyone who walks in to get a job at McDonald's can make twice as much? Who cares if beers are $5-12 at some places if they're much cheaper elsewhere? The entire point I was making, and the which you are trying to deny by your argument (you may have quoted some factual info, but you're putting it together to make a specific argument to back up your opinion), is that it's actually not that hard to go out and entertain yourself, in person, with friends, for cheap or free.