13 ms·

What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

252 points by gphil 14y ago

HairyMezican 14y ago
If he really does have mow siting list of months, you would think he'd raise his prices. He would make more money, some people wouldn't go to him for suits anymore, but that would just mean that others would get their suits more quickly
- runT1ME 14y ago
  I agree, unless he loses more than half his business, why not double his prices? Maybe he only makes one suit a month that way, but he would sure have a lot more free time...
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    Some people just really love what they do, love being busy, and want to be able to share their gift with more people. The certainty of constant sales/deal-flow has a value all its own too. But don't let that stop you parroting the same advice to every self-employed/contractor/business-person who claims to be popular/keeping busy that we see on every. single. thread. on. HN.
graupel 14y ago
One of the first things I did when I got my first 'real' job was get a custom-made suit from a place in our neighborhood; it was $1000 and he did like 25 measurements and said it would be 2 weeks until it was ready. Turns out he was sending the measurements to Korea where the suits are custom made then shipped back, and then they do final alterations in the US. I've ordered 3 more since then by just sending an email & choosing a color - don't think I could ever go back to an off-the-shelf suit - custom fit is so much more comfortable.
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  I've thought about doing this too. The problem is my weight and body composition keeps changing a lot as I pick up different sports, so a thousand dollar suit I buy today may very well become too small or too big six months down the line.
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    If you get a custom suit (you don't necessarily need to spend 1k), usually they make it with enough fabric that you can adjust it in or out by at least an inch or so.
- lanstein 14y ago
  Could you say, are you in SF? Also, your email isn't visible in your profile unless you put it in the 'about' box.
  - thomaspaine 14y ago
    If you're looking for a bespoke tailor in SF that does this, visit Spoon Tailor in Chinatown. Hong Kong tailors are some of the best in the world, and I believe suits start at $700+ depending on fabric.
    - eric_j_j 14y ago
      I'm headed to a suit tailoring event that Indochino is doing in downtown San Francisco in a couple weeks. You can get measured for free and order right there it sounds like. Prices are decent ($400) and people here say the quality/fit is spot on. Glad to hear the industry is still alive for craftsmen like Frew. http://www.indochino.com/traveling-tailor/display http://www.indochino.com/traveling-tailor/display
      - lanstein 14y ago
        Thanks, both of you.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
ghshephard 14y ago
If there was _every_ a task ideally suited (no pun intended) for automation, this is it. Plunk the 16 measurements required and you should have a high quality bespoke suit.
- mason55 14y ago
  There are plenty of companies that already do that (Indochino, Modasuite, Black Lapel, etc). No one who cares much about fashion believes that they will overtake a good bespoke suit any time soon. For example, measurement is not as easy as "wrap a tape around your arm". You have to take multiples to make sure you get people as they add water weight, you have to take it at the right spot which might change for each person, etc etc. Then, machine sewing still isn't as good as hand sewing. If each pattern is different then it's difficult to automate the sewing. Lots of little changes in each suit make it tough to both automate and maintain high quality.
  - gknoy 14y ago
    The skill in measurement is an entirely different skill from that of doing the sewing, however. If you had a machine that could sew as well as a human, we could have an army of measurement experts sending them to the machines, which would churn out custom-made suits. I think the bigger question is how to automate the sewing. If we could do that, I imagine it would make it much more scalable.
    - jrockway 14y ago
      I think if we can make self-driving cars we can make machines that can make a suit. The reality is that it's probably cheaper to pay people to do it. I have a friend who orders custom clothes from China. The quality is quite high and the price is lower than non-custom clothes for sale at Nordstrom's. Who is going to spent money making a machine to do this when the human labor doesn't cost anything?
- stusmall 14y ago
  That's slightly different. That's called made to measure. Its where you have one stock design and then its custom made to your body. For every M2M suit of a style, the patterns will match, label style will match, pockets will match. Its just the size that is different. I hear indochino does a pretty good job of making affordable M2M suits. For their prices I'd imagine a lot of the process is highly automated. When you get a bespoke suit made, you walk in and sit down with consultant and you figure out every little detail. He helps you pick a pattern that matches your coloring, label width that matches your body size, number of buttons that match your personality. You end up with a suit that is 100% unique to you.
jcromartie 14y ago
Come on! (sorry)
- dag11 14y ago
  I get the reference, but I think this better belongs on Reddit.
  - erikgoldman 14y ago
    so does this article. reddit used to be almost entirely programming, then it got into libertarianism, general engineering, and articles like this and eventually transformed into cat memes. just wait...
  - westicle 14y ago
    For a reference that good, maybe he considers it karma well spent.
    - jrockway 14y ago
      Gob never refers to the entire suit as costing $4000, so the reference is not that good, actually.
T_S_ 14y ago
Why can't the TSA make me a suit? They already have the measurements. I'm barely half joking here. Seems like this is one of those unsolved "solved problems".
- stcredzero 14y ago
  You may have something here. You wouldn't even need millimeter waves to do it. Just a 3D scanner setup, which can amount to an old projector and some webcams. We should be able to use technology from 3D motion capture to build a physical model of someone's skeleto-muscular system. The hard part would be the domain knowledge. Someone would have to work closely with a tailor to convert his/her specialized knowledge about fabrics and seams and how clothing hangs off the body into algorithms. (And even then, you'd probably need a trained operator with a sense of design.)
  - lancewiggs 14y ago
    X-rays used to be very popular for shoe fitting. I strongly suspect that millimeter waves have similar long term health issues. And I don't see many getting naked in front of a 3D video camera set-up.
    - nitrogen 14y ago
      Millimeter waves are not ionizing, while the x-rays used by TSA backscatter machines and medical x-rays are.
      - dredmorbius 14y ago
        The question isn't whether or not they're ionizing. The question is whether or not they have adverse biological actions.
        noonespecial 14y ago
        Its highly likely that those are in fact the same question.
lmm 14y ago
Would we really be better off in bespoke suits? It doesn't sound like this Frew has a very good life if he's having to work in his living room and can't afford his own suits. Wanting to have a someone personally spend 75 hours on your suit seems terribly egotistical; if they do it for the love of it then fair enough, but honestly I'd feel more comfortable in a suit I knew hadn't consumed so much human life energy.
- gdubs 14y ago
  Right, because the clothing industry at large has always been good about how it 'consumes human life energy'. While I get where you're coming from, I think it's more egotistical to deprive someone of their job because you think it's too hard for them, or that they'd be better off doing something else. It's his job. Plus, he's making 50 grand a year. Which is more than most teachers in the U.S.
rhplus 14y ago
Not mentioned in the article, but if you're willing to wait, some of those Saville Row suitmakers will produce a bespoke suit for much cheaper than $4000. The trick is to add a 4 week wait time and ship the measurements off to India. And of course, if you can make the trip to India yourself (or plenty of other countries in SE Asia), then a bespoke suit will cost you less than $100.
- eshvk 14y ago
  I have often been tempted to go get a suit from these guys ( http://www.syedbawkher.com/ http://www.syedbawkher.com/) who promise a bespoke suit as good as Saville Row. However, the number they quote ~ $1000 is not exactly cheap enough for me to experiment.
- shimon_e 14y ago
  Bespoke and a made to measure pos for a $100 are two completely different things.
- greghinch 14y ago
  I bought a couple $100 suits in Vietnam when I was there. The fit was good but the quality was low. They fell apart within a year. That was the experience that everyone I talked to who bought made to measure clothing there had. You get what you pay for.
leothekim 14y ago
$4000.
lancewiggs 14y ago
In my opinion it's a lot of money, but can be very well spent. A fantastically fitting and well designed suit is a powerful weapon in business, politics and life. Trends come and go, but suits always seem to come back into vogue, and you can really tell the difference between the highest quality bespoke suiting and shirts that the CEO/HNWI/high ranking politician wear, and the ones that lower levels are wearing. Like it or not I've found that suits really work to project "rank" (whatever that means) - working on me and (sometimes) for me. So it's worth the money to invest in at least one very good one. Some say we should dress for the job we want next, or in ten years. Add-ons beyond the initial investment can add up, including a range of shirts, ties, multiple work suits and suits for other purposes such as formal events and outdoor events in summer. However purchasing well means that these can last for years and years. Suits for men are a lot easier, cheaper and last longer than business clothing for women, who have another order or two of complexity to deal with. It's the same with "casual" clothes. Some people wear casual clothes that are not so casual or cheap on closer inspection.
nicholassmith 14y ago
My Dad is a tailor, from ye olden days as well and cut his teeth measuring, marking and cutting. Yes, you can get a made to measure suit that's pretty much damn near perfect but when a truly experienced tailor works to produce a suit it's essentially a hand-crafted, one of a kind piece of art. And oddly given my love of tailored suits I generally buy off the peg ones as I'm way too hard on clothing to justify the outlay (even with a family discount).
- tomkinstinch 14y ago
  Beyond the skill of art, I would imagine that an advantage of a practiced tailor is also that you get to benefit from their knowledge of which styles or cuts would work well for your particular features, intent, and life story. Software can get the geometry right, but it's hard to program taste.
mbell 14y ago
I bought a suit when I graduated and was looking for a job, wasn't custom tailed just off the shelf. It worked (I guess) I got a job as employee 4. I haven't worn a suit in _years_. In fact if someone were to judge me by my uniform I'm fine with saying "sorry, this isn't a fit" (pun intended).
gjm11 14y ago
From http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html ... Why do the media keep running stories saying suits are back? Because PR firms tell them to.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mherdeg 14y ago
  Graham also says in that column (and this is weird that I remember it, not having read it in five years!) "we never managed to crack the print edition of the Times."
- fecklessyouth 14y ago
  It's not the suits are back...it's that they never really left.
  - emmapersky 14y ago
    this.
- thomaspaine 14y ago
  What does this have to do with anything other than that both articles happen to use the word "suits"? This isn't a story about the suit making a comeback, it's about old world artisanship struggling to survive in a 21st century economy.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  In fairness, Adam Davidson's usually not quite so crass as your typical fashion reporter. Usually.
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  Read the article more closely. This is about craftmanship trying to survive in an age where craftmanship itself does not scale. It's not about the "submarine PR" phenomenon that concerns the Paul Graham article.
dredmorbius 14y ago
Yet another submarine: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. $4000 is several times what I spend on clothes in a year. It's several times what I spend on clothes in several years. There's a far less expensive option that's highly satisficing. Suits, once an inexpensive, practical, standardized alternative to more ornate and expensive clothing, are now the expensive, frequently impractical attire. The lead time to purchase is too long. And a far lower grade of tailoring is more than sufficient for virtually any occasion. That's basic facts. There are exceptions -- people for whom the expense is neither extravagent nor unneccessary. It's a pretty small crowd, well within the top 1%, and probably more like the top 0.01%. Then divide by two, because, well, very few women wear suits (though women's fashion is its own discussion). As TFA notes, bespoke tailoring doesn't scale. And it strongly suggests a rather fragile relationship between the garment and the wearer -- I can change in multiple of 25 separate measurements within a few months to a years time -- does this render a suit poor-fitting? The made-to-measure alternative exists, and for many or most, it's a more-than-acceptable alternative for either formal or casual clothing. With correctly chosen measuring points, and if necessary, some additional tailoring, garments can be made to fit quite well. Cloth is pretty fungible. Sticking to conservative fashions, styles, and cuts means you'll have something that will wear well for years. And in a world in which off-the-rack sizing is increasingly problematic (aggressively styled cuts with little sizing leeway result in more frustrated customers), it's increasingly an option. There are a few vendors in the space, though I feel it's still waiting for its true visionary.
- majormajor 14y ago
  This article doesn't read like a subtle "the suit is back!" pitch to me. It's a pretty interesting look at the economics of a couple of different ways of making better-fitting suits. I agree that the interesting changes will come out of the made-to-measure world. Considering the difference in comfort (not to mention look!) that properly-fitting clothing provides, I'd be extremely interested in getting a nice made-to-measure suit if I had the sort of job or social calendar that would give me opportunities to wear it... and while I don't expect to ever be in the sort of job or circles that would require a suit regularly, I definitely look forward to an economical, quick(ish) way of getting a nice-fitting suit. Last time I bought a suit I had to wait over a month for alterations to be done at the department store anyway, so if someone can come up with a way of reducing made-to-measure turnaround to a month... And then let me gets khakis and less-formal shirts made that way too... I buy a lot more of those than suits.
mrinterweb 14y ago
Not directly related to the article, but I was immediately reminded of the Arrested Development episode where the value of Gob's suit kept going up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI
BrianGaffney 14y ago
If you're in Australia Vinspi.com.au are an online tailored/bespoke suit shop. You provide the measurements and build a suit design online. 2 week turnaround. They only ship to Australia at the moment and suits themselves are made in Bangkok.
misterbwong 14y ago
Interesting. I wonder how the foreign suit makers affect this business. I have a few friends that visit Thailand regularly and get custom suits made (cost is <$200 USD). For the price of one of these suits in NY, you could fly to Bangkok (in Business Class!) AND get a few custom made suits.
- gtuckerkellogg 14y ago
  Those <$200 USD suits made in Thailand are unlikely to be top shelf. There is a huge business in southeast asia on rapid turnaround custom suits. It's not targeting the same market as real bespoke tailoring. I have a weakness for bespoke suits. I live in Singapore, and have gone to the same tailor for seven years. He's superb, but you can tell from working with a great tailor why even "made to measure" suits can be disappointing. When I started with this guy, I would go back for two fittings after my initial measurements, and before the suit was done. The fittings would be done with the partially constructed suit. Many details were checked and little adjustments made: asymmetry in my body, the sway in the back, where I pocket my phone, how to adjust the jacket for my wallet, and making sure the right sleeve accomodates my watch (I'm left handed). I thought it was overkill. But worn, his suits are flawless and so comfortable the idea that a suit would be uncomfortable is a distant concept. After the first few years we reduced it by one fitting.
patio11 14y ago
Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so much work they have to turn work away. Raise the prices. Then raise the prices. Then when you're done with that, raise the prices. At some point you'll be too expensive for the typical businessman, which will make you absolutely crack for a certain type of person common in New York, thus defeating all efforts at being less busy. So it goes. I guess you will have to raise prices.
- ovi256 14y ago
  As I was reading the article I hoped I'd find a dose of common sense in the comments, and indeed, here it is. Good as always, Patrick. Guys, take notes, this also applies for contracting.
- aidenn0 14y ago
  Indeed if he makes $50k off of 48 suits a year, he could nearly double his income by raising his price by 25%; if he is turning away customers that seems like a no-brainer.
- harryh 14y ago
  The real question is why hasn't he done this already? It's a fairly obvious solution. I suspect that there is some other force at work here, though I'm at a loss to guess what it might be. It's too bad that the NYTimes didn't raise this question.
  - sopooneo 14y ago
    Absolutely. I hate it when otherwise compelling articles fail to even raise a screamingly obvious question, much less answer it. The cynical me wonders if it is because the writers actually do know the answer, and it somehow weakens or distracts from their point. Or perhaps requires the telling of an impolite truth.
jonnii 14y ago
My best friend from highschool has ended up in this world through his passion for all things sartorial (http://www.thearmourystore.com/ http://www.thearmourystore.com/). He was involved in creating a wonderful documentary that follows suit makers of Naples called O'Mast (http://vimeo.com/16443611 http://vimeo.com/16443611), which even for someone like me who knows nothing about suits was really interesting. I suggest checking it out as it'll give you an idea of the kind of skill required to make a custom made suit. No matter what you may think about spending $4000 on a suit, it's a shame to see this kind of craftmanship dying out =(
- exhaze 14y ago
  Is Mark your best friend? I had the pleasure of seeing the documentary when it was screened in San Francisco and meeting Mark and Gianluca. It was pretty eye-opening to talk to people who really live and breathe men's tailored clothing.
  - jonnii 14y ago
    Indeed. I was the best man at his wedding.
nl 14y ago
Even the richest customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the new suit is finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a ready-to-wear Kiton version at twice the price. Isn't it pretty clear here that he should raise prices dramatically? Clearly the demand is there (people spend twice the price on a inferior product).
- mikescar 14y ago
  Huh? The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait. If so many pass up a 50% discount to get immediate satisfaction, they aren't likely to change their preference for waiting once the product they already didn't buy becomes dramatically more expensive.
  - nl 14y ago
    The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait. Raising the price stops you competing in the whole "I need a new suit" market. Now you are in the custom luxury good market, and there the time to buy isn't an inconvenience, it is a feature. The whole pay-to-pick-my-Ferrari-up-in-Maranello takes a lot longer than the normal Ferrari ordering process (and is hugely inconvenient) and yet still is used by a reasonable number of orders. You don't buy a Ferrari for transport, nor do you buy a luxury suit to cover your nakedness. If people can sell $500,000 watches[1], then a $20,000 suit seems reasonable, especially when it comes with custom consultations etc.. [1] http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-nadal-watch-is-ultra-light-weight/ http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-...
- cynwoody 14y ago
  Kiton is in an altogether higher tier. According to the Wikipedia, their ready-to-wear line ranges from $5500 to $8000, and their bespoke suits command $20K to $50K. They sell about 20,000 suits a year.
  - nl 14y ago
waterside81 14y ago
Indochino.com is your friend. Bought a few suits there, and two shirts, fantastic fit & quality. You take about 20 measurements yourself at home (you need a partner to help) upload your details on their site, and boom. Free shipping, free alterations. Not affiliated with them, just a happy customer. Plus Steve Nash is an investor; an NBA MVP can't be wrong, can he?
noonespecial 14y ago
"...there is now a large difference between what is monetizable and what is actually valuable." There's my gem of the day right there.
Game_Ender 14y ago
There is one economy of scale which eventually hit the bespoke suit industry: robotics/automation. Eventually you will be able to make tailoring robots to do each step of the process, much like they do in car factories. With the proper software you could step into a booth, get a 3D body scan and have the suit finished in hours or minutes.
- christensen_emc 14y ago
  This may work for crude made to measure suits, but bespoke is often more about trial and error than incredibly precise measurement. It also has a lot to do with the preferences of the client, particularly with regards to the shoulders and armholes. As for automation, a large number of MTM tailors currently email the measurements to a factory in Asia where the suit is cut by a worker getting paid pennies. The cost isnt necessarily in the making of the suit, its more the measuring and interactions between the tailor and the client that can take hours. For this reason alone I dont think we will see tailoring robots anytime soon.
astrojams 14y ago
A $4000 suit is worth $4000. No? Oh wait, this isn't Reddit.
williamle8300 14y ago
"Oh yea, me! The guy with the $4000 suit! C'MON!!"
joewee 14y ago
Please do not order a suit off the internet. That is the worst idea ever. I own eight suits and half dozen blazers. My first suits and blazers were all off the rack, including the high end brooks brothers. And they all fit me horribly. I never wear them now. I didn't realize how horrible they fit until I went to bespoke suits and shirts. So from someone who wasted a lot of money do yourself a favor, go to the best shirt maker in your city and have a custom shirt made. Be prepared to spend up to $300 for the shirt (though $200 is more reasonable). Then use that as your template and send it to a tailor in hong kong who will make duplicates of the shirt with the same measurement for $30 each in the fabric selection of your choice. Best investment ever. I recommend http://www.jantzentailor.com/ http://www.jantzentailor.com/ For suits, I can't help you if you are in America. But if you are going to order a suit in the USA try to get a british cut, the style that Frew uses. Just don't order something off the internet. Lots of factors that go into what makes a quality suit that can't be expressed online.
kamaal 14y ago
There is huge demand for special clothing and believe it or not Suit today is a special clothing. The point is really people's idea of dressing has changed. There were times when costly clothing automatically meant something. Those days are gone. I find it difficult to imagine, people wearing suits to work these days. Most of them look like 'Odd ones out'. I don't like to wear a suit, nor does anybody around me unless they are getting married or they are about to meet somebody powerful and rich. There fore clothing industry is 'optimized for the common case'. The only clothing I find worth buying these days is rugged jeans and polo T-shirts. Anything else and I find that to be focusing on ornament more than the substance. Therefore the demand and supply moves in that direction. The place for bespoke suits today is the distinction that tailored clothing carries. So they continue to remain clothing for 'special occasions'. Needless to say if you want to maintain that sort of distinction, you can't use machines to scale. Because that would mean you that sort of clothing no longer carries that distinction. Its not that these artists/tailors can't make money other way. They can probably get a job else where and live in better conditions- if they want to. But sometimes people stick to what they do and how they do for unexplainable reasons.
jcampbell1 14y ago
This article is offensive to me. Frew is a talented craftsman and a recent immigrant who single-handedly makes more than the average household in the US, and is in the top 1% of the world in terms of income. He has his own business that is all his through hard work, and has aspirations of becoming a famous designer. There is no need to insult Frew about his work clothes or his choosing not to make a suit for himself. Frew is rich, and should be applauded. I don't pay attention to politics, but I used to roll my eyes when right-wingers would talk about "new york times liberal elitism", but in this case I agree with the rednecks.
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  Revenue != Net Income.
pessimist 14y ago
This problem is as old as the Industrial Revolution, not exactly news. I moved to India and here I can afford tons of household help. For example, I have a chauffeur, who comes from a community of highly skilled weavers who make traditional fabrics like this: http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html. Basically, there is simply not enough demand for those skills. So he chucks his skill - handed down from father to son for generations - learns English and driving, and moves to the city. He now hopes to soon move out from his slum to a real house. I wish him luck - he is ambitious and hard-working, and is making a niche for himself in a challenging world.
xlevus 14y ago
To me, my $4000 Savile-Row suit is worth twice as much. It's not bespoke, it's made-to-measure. Sort of half way to bespoke. I don't need to wear suits, I never really have. I've always worked for relaxed companies, never been to a wedding (well, apart from the one I bought the suit for). But I'm a skinny guy. Even the slimmest of fitting shirts and suits on the rack didn't really fit. My suit? It's like a glove. I put it on and feel awesome. And this is why my suit is worth every penny.
Tichy 14y ago
So what is it that makes the tailoring impenetrable to automation? For example why couldn't pieces be cut with a laser cutter? Why can Chinese workers create a suit in 30 minutes and US workers only in 10 hours? I wonder if modern machines wouldn't be able to do completely different things, too. Why does cloth have to come in flat sheets? Maybe modern machines could produce cloth that already has shapes (like knitting machines, only more fine grained?). No more sewing required?
matthiasb 14y ago
The shoemaker's children always go barefoot. Les cordonniers sont toujours les plus mal chaussés.
stupandaus 14y ago
Spending a significant amount of time in Shanghai the past few years, I've frequented the Shanghai fake market many times. While some portions sell knockoff goods, the fabric section is quite spectacular. I can get a bespoke 2 piece suit for $100 or 3 piece for $150. I get custom dress shirts for $10. The material and craftsmanship is high and the primary market is expatriates (read: non-Chinese) living in Shanghai. The way it's set up, is there are maybe 50-100 booths set up in the fabric market area. Each of the booths is rented out by a proprietor, and they are in business for themselves. Most operate by relying on an economy of scale behind the scenes. The sole proprietor would take your measurements in the shop, then send them to a behind the scenes system which processes hundreds of suits a day. It is not uncommon to have your custom clothing done within 24 hours and shipped directly to wherever you are staying. Very interesting way to manage the economy of scale.
marcamillion 14y ago
I wonder what would happen if he created a marketplace for his services. So rather than taking orders, people would bid on his time. I guess the downside to that is he is still fighting the 'time to delivery' problem - of people wanting it now.

252 points by gphil 14y ago

If he really does have mow siting list of months, you would think he'd raise his prices. He would make more money, some people wouldn't go to him for suits anymore, but that would just mean that others would get their suits more quickly

runT1ME 14y ago
I agree, unless he loses more than half his business, why not double his prices? Maybe he only makes one suit a month that way, but he would sure have a lot more free time...
- heretohelp 14y ago
  Some people just really love what they do, love being busy, and want to be able to share their gift with more people. The certainty of constant sales/deal-flow has a value all its own too. But don't let that stop you parroting the same advice to every self-employed/contractor/business-person who claims to be popular/keeping busy that we see on every. single. thread. on. HN.

graupel 14y ago

One of the first things I did when I got my first 'real' job was get a custom-made suit from a place in our neighborhood; it was $1000 and he did like 25 measurements and said it would be 2 weeks until it was ready. Turns out he was sending the measurements to Korea where the suits are custom made then shipped back, and then they do final alterations in the US. I've ordered 3 more since then by just sending an email & choosing a color - don't think I could ever go back to an off-the-shelf suit - custom fit is so much more comfortable.

enraged_camel 14y ago
I've thought about doing this too. The problem is my weight and body composition keeps changing a lot as I pick up different sports, so a thousand dollar suit I buy today may very well become too small or too big six months down the line.
- slantyyz 14y ago
  If you get a custom suit (you don't necessarily need to spend 1k), usually they make it with enough fabric that you can adjust it in or out by at least an inch or so.
lanstein 14y ago
Could you say, are you in SF? Also, your email isn't visible in your profile unless you put it in the 'about' box.
- thomaspaine 14y ago
  If you're looking for a bespoke tailor in SF that does this, visit Spoon Tailor in Chinatown. Hong Kong tailors are some of the best in the world, and I believe suits start at $700+ depending on fabric.
  - eric_j_j 14y ago
    I'm headed to a suit tailoring event that Indochino is doing in downtown San Francisco in a couple weeks. You can get measured for free and order right there it sounds like. Prices are decent ($400) and people here say the quality/fit is spot on. Glad to hear the industry is still alive for craftsmen like Frew. http://www.indochino.com/traveling-tailor/display http://www.indochino.com/traveling-tailor/display
    - lanstein 14y ago
      Thanks, both of you.

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ghshephard 14y ago

If there was _every_ a task ideally suited (no pun intended) for automation, this is it. Plunk the 16 measurements required and you should have a high quality bespoke suit.

mason55 14y ago
There are plenty of companies that already do that (Indochino, Modasuite, Black Lapel, etc). No one who cares much about fashion believes that they will overtake a good bespoke suit any time soon. For example, measurement is not as easy as "wrap a tape around your arm". You have to take multiples to make sure you get people as they add water weight, you have to take it at the right spot which might change for each person, etc etc. Then, machine sewing still isn't as good as hand sewing. If each pattern is different then it's difficult to automate the sewing. Lots of little changes in each suit make it tough to both automate and maintain high quality.
- gknoy 14y ago
  The skill in measurement is an entirely different skill from that of doing the sewing, however. If you had a machine that could sew as well as a human, we could have an army of measurement experts sending them to the machines, which would churn out custom-made suits. I think the bigger question is how to automate the sewing. If we could do that, I imagine it would make it much more scalable.
  - jrockway 14y ago
    I think if we can make self-driving cars we can make machines that can make a suit. The reality is that it's probably cheaper to pay people to do it. I have a friend who orders custom clothes from China. The quality is quite high and the price is lower than non-custom clothes for sale at Nordstrom's. Who is going to spent money making a machine to do this when the human labor doesn't cost anything?
stusmall 14y ago
That's slightly different. That's called made to measure. Its where you have one stock design and then its custom made to your body. For every M2M suit of a style, the patterns will match, label style will match, pockets will match. Its just the size that is different. I hear indochino does a pretty good job of making affordable M2M suits. For their prices I'd imagine a lot of the process is highly automated. When you get a bespoke suit made, you walk in and sit down with consultant and you figure out every little detail. He helps you pick a pattern that matches your coloring, label width that matches your body size, number of buttons that match your personality. You end up with a suit that is 100% unique to you.

jcromartie 14y ago

Come on! (sorry)

dag11 14y ago
I get the reference, but I think this better belongs on Reddit.
- erikgoldman 14y ago
  so does this article. reddit used to be almost entirely programming, then it got into libertarianism, general engineering, and articles like this and eventually transformed into cat memes. just wait...
- westicle 14y ago
  For a reference that good, maybe he considers it karma well spent.
  - jrockway 14y ago
    Gob never refers to the entire suit as costing $4000, so the reference is not that good, actually.

T_S_ 14y ago

Why can't the TSA make me a suit? They already have the measurements. I'm barely half joking here. Seems like this is one of those unsolved "solved problems".

stcredzero 14y ago
You may have something here. You wouldn't even need millimeter waves to do it. Just a 3D scanner setup, which can amount to an old projector and some webcams. We should be able to use technology from 3D motion capture to build a physical model of someone's skeleto-muscular system. The hard part would be the domain knowledge. Someone would have to work closely with a tailor to convert his/her specialized knowledge about fabrics and seams and how clothing hangs off the body into algorithms. (And even then, you'd probably need a trained operator with a sense of design.)
- lancewiggs 14y ago
  X-rays used to be very popular for shoe fitting. I strongly suspect that millimeter waves have similar long term health issues. And I don't see many getting naked in front of a 3D video camera set-up.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    Millimeter waves are not ionizing, while the x-rays used by TSA backscatter machines and medical x-rays are.
    - dredmorbius 14y ago
      The question isn't whether or not they're ionizing. The question is whether or not they have adverse biological actions.
      - noonespecial 14y ago
        Its highly likely that those are in fact the same question.

lmm 14y ago

Would we really be better off in bespoke suits? It doesn't sound like this Frew has a very good life if he's having to work in his living room and can't afford his own suits. Wanting to have a someone personally spend 75 hours on your suit seems terribly egotistical; if they do it for the love of it then fair enough, but honestly I'd feel more comfortable in a suit I knew hadn't consumed so much human life energy.

gdubs 14y ago
Right, because the clothing industry at large has always been good about how it 'consumes human life energy'. While I get where you're coming from, I think it's more egotistical to deprive someone of their job because you think it's too hard for them, or that they'd be better off doing something else. It's his job. Plus, he's making 50 grand a year. Which is more than most teachers in the U.S.

rhplus 14y ago

Not mentioned in the article, but if you're willing to wait, some of those Saville Row suitmakers will produce a bespoke suit for much cheaper than $4000. The trick is to add a 4 week wait time and ship the measurements off to India. And of course, if you can make the trip to India yourself (or plenty of other countries in SE Asia), then a bespoke suit will cost you less than $100.

eshvk 14y ago
I have often been tempted to go get a suit from these guys ( http://www.syedbawkher.com/ http://www.syedbawkher.com/) who promise a bespoke suit as good as Saville Row. However, the number they quote ~ $1000 is not exactly cheap enough for me to experiment.
shimon_e 14y ago
Bespoke and a made to measure pos for a $100 are two completely different things.
greghinch 14y ago
I bought a couple $100 suits in Vietnam when I was there. The fit was good but the quality was low. They fell apart within a year. That was the experience that everyone I talked to who bought made to measure clothing there had. You get what you pay for.

leothekim 14y ago

$4000.

lancewiggs 14y ago

In my opinion it's a lot of money, but can be very well spent. A fantastically fitting and well designed suit is a powerful weapon in business, politics and life. Trends come and go, but suits always seem to come back into vogue, and you can really tell the difference between the highest quality bespoke suiting and shirts that the CEO/HNWI/high ranking politician wear, and the ones that lower levels are wearing. Like it or not I've found that suits really work to project "rank" (whatever that means) - working on me and (sometimes) for me. So it's worth the money to invest in at least one very good one. Some say we should dress for the job we want next, or in ten years. Add-ons beyond the initial investment can add up, including a range of shirts, ties, multiple work suits and suits for other purposes such as formal events and outdoor events in summer. However purchasing well means that these can last for years and years. Suits for men are a lot easier, cheaper and last longer than business clothing for women, who have another order or two of complexity to deal with. It's the same with "casual" clothes. Some people wear casual clothes that are not so casual or cheap on closer inspection.

nicholassmith 14y ago

My Dad is a tailor, from ye olden days as well and cut his teeth measuring, marking and cutting. Yes, you can get a made to measure suit that's pretty much damn near perfect but when a truly experienced tailor works to produce a suit it's essentially a hand-crafted, one of a kind piece of art. And oddly given my love of tailored suits I generally buy off the peg ones as I'm way too hard on clothing to justify the outlay (even with a family discount).

tomkinstinch 14y ago
Beyond the skill of art, I would imagine that an advantage of a practiced tailor is also that you get to benefit from their knowledge of which styles or cuts would work well for your particular features, intent, and life story. Software can get the geometry right, but it's hard to program taste.

mbell 14y ago

I bought a suit when I graduated and was looking for a job, wasn't custom tailed just off the shelf. It worked (I guess) I got a job as employee 4. I haven't worn a suit in _years_. In fact if someone were to judge me by my uniform I'm fine with saying "sorry, this isn't a fit" (pun intended).

gjm11 14y ago

From http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html ... Why do the media keep running stories saying suits are back? Because PR firms tell them to.

deleted 14y ago
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mherdeg 14y ago
Graham also says in that column (and this is weird that I remember it, not having read it in five years!) "we never managed to crack the print edition of the Times."
fecklessyouth 14y ago
It's not the suits are back...it's that they never really left.
- emmapersky 14y ago
  this.
thomaspaine 14y ago
What does this have to do with anything other than that both articles happen to use the word "suits"? This isn't a story about the suit making a comeback, it's about old world artisanship struggling to survive in a 21st century economy.
dredmorbius 14y ago
In fairness, Adam Davidson's usually not quite so crass as your typical fashion reporter. Usually.
lobster_johnson 14y ago
Read the article more closely. This is about craftmanship trying to survive in an age where craftmanship itself does not scale. It's not about the "submarine PR" phenomenon that concerns the Paul Graham article.

dredmorbius 14y ago

Yet another submarine: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html The suit is dead for any number of reason, dittos bespoke clothing. $4000 is several times what I spend on clothes in a year. It's several times what I spend on clothes in several years. There's a far less expensive option that's highly satisficing. Suits, once an inexpensive, practical, standardized alternative to more ornate and expensive clothing, are now the expensive, frequently impractical attire. The lead time to purchase is too long. And a far lower grade of tailoring is more than sufficient for virtually any occasion. That's basic facts. There are exceptions -- people for whom the expense is neither extravagent nor unneccessary. It's a pretty small crowd, well within the top 1%, and probably more like the top 0.01%. Then divide by two, because, well, very few women wear suits (though women's fashion is its own discussion). As TFA notes, bespoke tailoring doesn't scale. And it strongly suggests a rather fragile relationship between the garment and the wearer -- I can change in multiple of 25 separate measurements within a few months to a years time -- does this render a suit poor-fitting? The made-to-measure alternative exists, and for many or most, it's a more-than-acceptable alternative for either formal or casual clothing. With correctly chosen measuring points, and if necessary, some additional tailoring, garments can be made to fit quite well. Cloth is pretty fungible. Sticking to conservative fashions, styles, and cuts means you'll have something that will wear well for years. And in a world in which off-the-rack sizing is increasingly problematic (aggressively styled cuts with little sizing leeway result in more frustrated customers), it's increasingly an option. There are a few vendors in the space, though I feel it's still waiting for its true visionary.

majormajor 14y ago
This article doesn't read like a subtle "the suit is back!" pitch to me. It's a pretty interesting look at the economics of a couple of different ways of making better-fitting suits. I agree that the interesting changes will come out of the made-to-measure world. Considering the difference in comfort (not to mention look!) that properly-fitting clothing provides, I'd be extremely interested in getting a nice made-to-measure suit if I had the sort of job or social calendar that would give me opportunities to wear it... and while I don't expect to ever be in the sort of job or circles that would require a suit regularly, I definitely look forward to an economical, quick(ish) way of getting a nice-fitting suit. Last time I bought a suit I had to wait over a month for alterations to be done at the department store anyway, so if someone can come up with a way of reducing made-to-measure turnaround to a month... And then let me gets khakis and less-formal shirts made that way too... I buy a lot more of those than suits.

mrinterweb 14y ago

Not directly related to the article, but I was immediately reminded of the Arrested Development episode where the value of Gob's suit kept going up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Nl7VYFEaI

BrianGaffney 14y ago

If you're in Australia Vinspi.com.au are an online tailored/bespoke suit shop. You provide the measurements and build a suit design online. 2 week turnaround. They only ship to Australia at the moment and suits themselves are made in Bangkok.

misterbwong 14y ago

Interesting. I wonder how the foreign suit makers affect this business. I have a few friends that visit Thailand regularly and get custom suits made (cost is <$200 USD). For the price of one of these suits in NY, you could fly to Bangkok (in Business Class!) AND get a few custom made suits.

gtuckerkellogg 14y ago
Those <$200 USD suits made in Thailand are unlikely to be top shelf. There is a huge business in southeast asia on rapid turnaround custom suits. It's not targeting the same market as real bespoke tailoring. I have a weakness for bespoke suits. I live in Singapore, and have gone to the same tailor for seven years. He's superb, but you can tell from working with a great tailor why even "made to measure" suits can be disappointing. When I started with this guy, I would go back for two fittings after my initial measurements, and before the suit was done. The fittings would be done with the partially constructed suit. Many details were checked and little adjustments made: asymmetry in my body, the sway in the back, where I pocket my phone, how to adjust the jacket for my wallet, and making sure the right sleeve accomodates my watch (I'm left handed). I thought it was overkill. But worn, his suits are flawless and so comfortable the idea that a suit would be uncomfortable is a distant concept. After the first few years we reduced it by one fitting.

patio11 14y ago

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so much work they have to turn work away. Raise the prices. Then raise the prices. Then when you're done with that, raise the prices. At some point you'll be too expensive for the typical businessman, which will make you absolutely crack for a certain type of person common in New York, thus defeating all efforts at being less busy. So it goes. I guess you will have to raise prices.

ovi256 14y ago
As I was reading the article I hoped I'd find a dose of common sense in the comments, and indeed, here it is. Good as always, Patrick. Guys, take notes, this also applies for contracting.
aidenn0 14y ago
Indeed if he makes $50k off of 48 suits a year, he could nearly double his income by raising his price by 25%; if he is turning away customers that seems like a no-brainer.
harryh 14y ago
The real question is why hasn't he done this already? It's a fairly obvious solution. I suspect that there is some other force at work here, though I'm at a loss to guess what it might be. It's too bad that the NYTimes didn't raise this question.
- sopooneo 14y ago
  Absolutely. I hate it when otherwise compelling articles fail to even raise a screamingly obvious question, much less answer it. The cynical me wonders if it is because the writers actually do know the answer, and it somehow weakens or distracts from their point. Or perhaps requires the telling of an impolite truth.

jonnii 14y ago

My best friend from highschool has ended up in this world through his passion for all things sartorial (http://www.thearmourystore.com/ http://www.thearmourystore.com/). He was involved in creating a wonderful documentary that follows suit makers of Naples called O'Mast (http://vimeo.com/16443611 http://vimeo.com/16443611), which even for someone like me who knows nothing about suits was really interesting. I suggest checking it out as it'll give you an idea of the kind of skill required to make a custom made suit. No matter what you may think about spending $4000 on a suit, it's a shame to see this kind of craftmanship dying out =(

exhaze 14y ago
Is Mark your best friend? I had the pleasure of seeing the documentary when it was screened in San Francisco and meeting Mark and Gianluca. It was pretty eye-opening to talk to people who really live and breathe men's tailored clothing.
- jonnii 14y ago
  Indeed. I was the best man at his wedding.

nl 14y ago

Even the richest customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the new suit is finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a ready-to-wear Kiton version at twice the price. Isn't it pretty clear here that he should raise prices dramatically? Clearly the demand is there (people spend twice the price on a inferior product).

mikescar 14y ago
Huh? The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait. If so many pass up a 50% discount to get immediate satisfaction, they aren't likely to change their preference for waiting once the product they already didn't buy becomes dramatically more expensive.
- nl 14y ago
  The whole point of paying twice as much is that you spend a fraction of the time defining product specs, and don't have to wait. Raising the price stops you competing in the whole "I need a new suit" market. Now you are in the custom luxury good market, and there the time to buy isn't an inconvenience, it is a feature. The whole pay-to-pick-my-Ferrari-up-in-Maranello takes a lot longer than the normal Ferrari ordering process (and is hugely inconvenient) and yet still is used by a reasonable number of orders. You don't buy a Ferrari for transport, nor do you buy a luxury suit to cover your nakedness. If people can sell $500,000 watches[1], then a $20,000 suit seems reasonable, especially when it comes with custom consultations etc.. [1] http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-nadal-watch-is-ultra-light-weight/ http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/10/richard-mille-rm027-rafael-...
cynwoody 14y ago
Kiton is in an altogether higher tier. According to the Wikipedia, their ready-to-wear line ranges from $5500 to $8000, and their bespoke suits command $20K to $50K. They sell about 20,000 suits a year.
- nl 14y ago

waterside81 14y ago

Indochino.com is your friend. Bought a few suits there, and two shirts, fantastic fit & quality. You take about 20 measurements yourself at home (you need a partner to help) upload your details on their site, and boom. Free shipping, free alterations. Not affiliated with them, just a happy customer. Plus Steve Nash is an investor; an NBA MVP can't be wrong, can he?

noonespecial 14y ago

"...there is now a large difference between what is monetizable and what is actually valuable." There's my gem of the day right there.

Game_Ender 14y ago

There is one economy of scale which eventually hit the bespoke suit industry: robotics/automation. Eventually you will be able to make tailoring robots to do each step of the process, much like they do in car factories. With the proper software you could step into a booth, get a 3D body scan and have the suit finished in hours or minutes.

christensen_emc 14y ago
This may work for crude made to measure suits, but bespoke is often more about trial and error than incredibly precise measurement. It also has a lot to do with the preferences of the client, particularly with regards to the shoulders and armholes. As for automation, a large number of MTM tailors currently email the measurements to a factory in Asia where the suit is cut by a worker getting paid pennies. The cost isnt necessarily in the making of the suit, its more the measuring and interactions between the tailor and the client that can take hours. For this reason alone I dont think we will see tailoring robots anytime soon.

astrojams 14y ago

A $4000 suit is worth $4000. No? Oh wait, this isn't Reddit.

williamle8300 14y ago

"Oh yea, me! The guy with the $4000 suit! C'MON!!"

joewee 14y ago

Please do not order a suit off the internet. That is the worst idea ever. I own eight suits and half dozen blazers. My first suits and blazers were all off the rack, including the high end brooks brothers. And they all fit me horribly. I never wear them now. I didn't realize how horrible they fit until I went to bespoke suits and shirts. So from someone who wasted a lot of money do yourself a favor, go to the best shirt maker in your city and have a custom shirt made. Be prepared to spend up to $300 for the shirt (though $200 is more reasonable). Then use that as your template and send it to a tailor in hong kong who will make duplicates of the shirt with the same measurement for $30 each in the fabric selection of your choice. Best investment ever. I recommend http://www.jantzentailor.com/ http://www.jantzentailor.com/ For suits, I can't help you if you are in America. But if you are going to order a suit in the USA try to get a british cut, the style that Frew uses. Just don't order something off the internet. Lots of factors that go into what makes a quality suit that can't be expressed online.

kamaal 14y ago

There is huge demand for special clothing and believe it or not Suit today is a special clothing. The point is really people's idea of dressing has changed. There were times when costly clothing automatically meant something. Those days are gone. I find it difficult to imagine, people wearing suits to work these days. Most of them look like 'Odd ones out'. I don't like to wear a suit, nor does anybody around me unless they are getting married or they are about to meet somebody powerful and rich. There fore clothing industry is 'optimized for the common case'. The only clothing I find worth buying these days is rugged jeans and polo T-shirts. Anything else and I find that to be focusing on ornament more than the substance. Therefore the demand and supply moves in that direction. The place for bespoke suits today is the distinction that tailored clothing carries. So they continue to remain clothing for 'special occasions'. Needless to say if you want to maintain that sort of distinction, you can't use machines to scale. Because that would mean you that sort of clothing no longer carries that distinction. Its not that these artists/tailors can't make money other way. They can probably get a job else where and live in better conditions- if they want to. But sometimes people stick to what they do and how they do for unexplainable reasons.

jcampbell1 14y ago

This article is offensive to me. Frew is a talented craftsman and a recent immigrant who single-handedly makes more than the average household in the US, and is in the top 1% of the world in terms of income. He has his own business that is all his through hard work, and has aspirations of becoming a famous designer. There is no need to insult Frew about his work clothes or his choosing not to make a suit for himself. Frew is rich, and should be applauded. I don't pay attention to politics, but I used to roll my eyes when right-wingers would talk about "new york times liberal elitism", but in this case I agree with the rednecks.

jacques_chester 14y ago
Revenue != Net Income.

pessimist 14y ago

This problem is as old as the Industrial Revolution, not exactly news. I moved to India and here I can afford tons of household help. For example, I have a chauffeur, who comes from a community of highly skilled weavers who make traditional fabrics like this: http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html http://bannacreations.blogspot.in/2012/02/ilkal-story.html. Basically, there is simply not enough demand for those skills. So he chucks his skill - handed down from father to son for generations - learns English and driving, and moves to the city. He now hopes to soon move out from his slum to a real house. I wish him luck - he is ambitious and hard-working, and is making a niche for himself in a challenging world.

xlevus 14y ago

To me, my $4000 Savile-Row suit is worth twice as much. It's not bespoke, it's made-to-measure. Sort of half way to bespoke. I don't need to wear suits, I never really have. I've always worked for relaxed companies, never been to a wedding (well, apart from the one I bought the suit for). But I'm a skinny guy. Even the slimmest of fitting shirts and suits on the rack didn't really fit. My suit? It's like a glove. I put it on and feel awesome. And this is why my suit is worth every penny.

Tichy 14y ago

So what is it that makes the tailoring impenetrable to automation? For example why couldn't pieces be cut with a laser cutter? Why can Chinese workers create a suit in 30 minutes and US workers only in 10 hours? I wonder if modern machines wouldn't be able to do completely different things, too. Why does cloth have to come in flat sheets? Maybe modern machines could produce cloth that already has shapes (like knitting machines, only more fine grained?). No more sewing required?

matthiasb 14y ago

The shoemaker's children always go barefoot. Les cordonniers sont toujours les plus mal chaussés.

stupandaus 14y ago

Spending a significant amount of time in Shanghai the past few years, I've frequented the Shanghai fake market many times. While some portions sell knockoff goods, the fabric section is quite spectacular. I can get a bespoke 2 piece suit for $100 or 3 piece for $150. I get custom dress shirts for $10. The material and craftsmanship is high and the primary market is expatriates (read: non-Chinese) living in Shanghai. The way it's set up, is there are maybe 50-100 booths set up in the fabric market area. Each of the booths is rented out by a proprietor, and they are in business for themselves. Most operate by relying on an economy of scale behind the scenes. The sole proprietor would take your measurements in the shop, then send them to a behind the scenes system which processes hundreds of suits a day. It is not uncommon to have your custom clothing done within 24 hours and shipped directly to wherever you are staying. Very interesting way to manage the economy of scale.

marcamillion 14y ago

I wonder what would happen if he created a marketplace for his services. So rather than taking orders, people would bid on his time. I guess the downside to that is he is still fighting the 'time to delivery' problem - of people wanting it now.