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> A certificate confirming he did learn the job is enough for companies to employ them. This is hilariously out of touch with real world hiring. If you put up
by josephg 1y ago
> A certificate confirming he did learn the job is enough for companies to employ them.
This is hilariously out of touch with real world hiring.
If you put up a job ad, there are so many people who will apply with all the certifications you can name. And if you ask them to write code, even something quite simple, they will fail utterly and completely.
I've interviewed a bit over 400 people at this point. When I was doing it as a full time job, people only talked to me after they pass a screening test - which already screens out the majority of applicants. Even then, about 3/4 of the people I've interviewed were terrible. So bad they could barely write hello world in the half hour we give them. This is on their own computer, in their favorite programming language. They did not have to talk to me during the process at all. A lot of the people who fail have graduated from decent universities. Some said they had 30 years professional experience.
I'm sure some of that is due to nerves. But a lot of it is simply because programming is hard, and most people don't have the right kind of brain for it. Lots of people - probably the majority if we're honest - bluster their way through certification programs or degrees. Many of them learn the theory but struggle with the practical skills. Sometimes they gather together in low performing teams at large companies where management doesn't know any better.
If you graduate from a music conservatory, you can probably play an instrument. But that isn't true of most computer science degrees. Lots of people graduate without being any good at programming.
Its also a numbers thing. Good programmers don't stay on the job market for long. Great people will send 1-3 applications and be hired. Or more likely be hired through word of mouth. Bad applicants might send hundreds. As a result, most job applications are written by dedicated people who get turned down over and over again by employers.
There's a reason fizzbuzz has become a cliche in our industry. If you put up a job ad, most people who send in an application won't be skilled enough to program it up.
- zwnow 1y agoFizzbuzz would be completely fine. Companies out there ask devs to solve highly niche cryptic tasks like the knapsack problem for no reason.
- akkartik 1y agoMeta phone screens currently involve 2 medium/hard leetcode problems AND 20 minutes of behavioral questions. The inmates (i.e. we programmers) are running the asylum.
- baq 1y agowho can pass this except recent college grads? I wouldn't have any time to prepare for this unless I was laid off unexpectedly, then grinding leetcode would be a full time job for a while.
- devnullbrain 1y agoMe. Because, for about 2 weeks during lay-off gardening leave, I did study it. On one hand this demonstrates that it isn't useful for testing innate skill. On the other hand, it was the best paid work I've ever done. It was an essential part in me getting a job (not at Meta) that paid multiples better than previous roles. This work allowed me to place myself in a group of people who can pass the test. Some of the people who are outside this group would make fine employees but don't want to or think to put in this work, for understandable reasons. But all of the lackadaisical applicants will fall outside this group. I get to signal that I'm not one of them. I spent 4 years in higher education for a non-essential positive signal to employers: 2 weeks is nothing. In the past I hated Leetcode, now I've begun to think of it as an opportunity. While as an individual my opportunity to shift the consensus on this form of interview is low, my opportunity to benefit from the arbitrage is high. Don't hate the player, etc.
- josephg 1y agoHah totally. When I was interviewing professionally, we emailed candidates a document describing our interview process. We told them in that document what we’d ask and told them how they could prepare. Almost nobody bothered to read that document before the interview. And the people who did were usually the better candidates. We joked internally about skipping the entire interview process, and just passing everyone who read our study notes.