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Humanity just doesn't ever learn. Europe will end up having draconian oversight and censorship that will be abused beyond belief by fascists. When some central

Humanity just doesn't ever learn. Europe will end up having draconian oversight and censorship that will be abused beyond belief by fascists. When some central entity--subject to the whims of political temperature--controls what you can access, there can be no trust in the durability and integrity of information. Same as in the US really, except there being executed to support the nascent regime without any liberal auspices.

Xeoncross 1y ago
> draconian oversight and censorship This is just human nature. Any place where humans live in close proximity for hundreds of years suffers the same fate until a revolution or power restructure resets the counter through the removal of the previous structures vestiges. Thanks to technology, it just keeps getting easier. Less time to put restrictive measures in place and a tighter feedback loop. Oh joy.
- Santosh83 1y ago
  I think you may have got it backwards? Technology seems to be greatly facilitating fascist control rather than weakening them...
  - mystraline 1y ago
    I think you hit the nail on the head. The original problem with The Panopticon was that it was 1 person in the center observing X amount of people. And at best, was a probabilistic 'am I being watched right now? ' with the answer of very low probability. For complete surveillance, you'd need a surveiller per watched. Enter technology. Now the surveillance isn't a person, but a set of computer programs. And, optimizing and analyzing the limited data flow out of a user is doable. And you then have computational spies everywhere. Most of them are limited to specific usecases. However the more data is shared, the tighter fascist control can be maintained. Then it just comes to 'detected event' and 'summon the secret police'.
    - bratwurst3000 1y ago
      this is on point. I tell this people since years. "if you share more data they have easyer acces to controll you"
    - wing-_-nuts 1y ago
      Not only that, a fascist state can identify people who are 'politically undesirable', then go back through the mountain of data held by private companies (facebook, google, chatbots, etc), trawl it to automatically create a dossier of kompromat, and apply pressure, repress voter turnout, etc.
      - retox 1y ago
        Yeah, a communist State would never
    - robotnikman 1y ago
      Isn't China already doing something like this?
      - redeeman 1y ago
        and the western countries
  - Xeoncross 1y ago
    Perhaps my last sarcastic line was a bit obtuse. Technology is certainly making it easier to enact control and with a tighter feedback loop. Rabbit trail, it's interesting how the modern western evil is now branded as "fascist control" as opposed to the other forms common throughout history. I wonder if it's related to calling everyone "toxic". It seems culture is moving towards more vague definitions of evil/wrong instead of pin-pointing the actual faults. Perhaps this is an important part of "newspeak" that we're suffering from.
    - PeterStuer 1y ago
      "Fascist" has just become a synonym for "someone not from my tribe doing something I do not like". It's the sad state of semantic pollution.
- hopelite 1y ago
  Also technology has made psychological neutralization easier by various means including amusement, satisfying the hierarchy of needs in general, and of course scaling and expanding tyrannical surveillance and clandestine and targeted subversion of self-determination (see Alex Karp bragging about Palantir defusing the "rise of the far right" in Europe). And even this OP measure of banning the "Internet Archive Open Library" is in actuality a kind of outlawing of the modern from of the printing press, the control of information, consciousness, awareness, thought, and speech. It is an anathema to the very foundation of America, especially in the year of the 250 year anniversary of the American Revolution. 250 years ago today, Americans were already killing British for the human right to free speech and freedom from this kind of aristocratic despotism of the hereditary ruling class. > "[...]unprecedentedly broad site-blocking order that aims to restrict access to shadow libraries [...]. In addition to ISP blocks, the order also directs search engines, DNS resolvers, advertisers, domain name services, CDNs and hosting companies to take action." Is that any different than the King's decree to smash the printing presses to disseminate information beyond the control and censorship of the aristocracy and treasonous merchants that enabled their web of control?
- seanw444 1y ago
  And this is a cycle people have known about for forever. > The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
  - LocalH 1y ago
    We're sorely behind schedule on that one.
- ashoeafoot 1y ago
  Its just leader caste nature, the fear of getting crushed by the momentum of ones "own" uncontrollable leadership running on a riff by situatuonal momentum. One can despair with a opera uniform and a detached steering wheel or run a "tight" ship, whipping the crew (who unlike groaning wood and ocean still obey) till moral improves.
g-b-r 1y ago
It's bewildering that this (and even more the attacks on privacy) occurs while authoritarianism is on the rise in the whole western whole, and partly realized in its leading country. They can't pretend anymore that it can't happen, but yet keep ignoring the risk
- hopelite 1y ago
  Imagine how people like me feel that have been warning of this for an unspecified number of decades now. I was told that I don't understand the internet and technology when I said that all these types of things would be happening, as it easily predicted if you even remotely integrate a basic understanding of human nature. Reality though is that, sure, you and me may for the time being be able to get around some of these efforts, but what does that matter when the vast majority already don't avail themselves of any of the subject resources, and the regime's control measures will only expand from here and will make it nearly impossible for even people like us to get access to things, let alone share them. My advice; try to "hoard" as much valuable information, data, and knowledge as possible; especially things regime really does not like and keep them offline and ideally in shielded storage. Maybe it will be for nothing and I am wrong, but maybe you may create the cache of human knowledge that survives into the future and humanity can uncover and recover from your "backup". We are really looking at a digital Fahrenheit 451 scenario or like when Kings and Bishops sent out their henchmen to smash printing presses and torture anyone who dared disseminate information that was not regime approved thought. It may not seem like it today, especially since it is all of course only about saving children and countering "piracy", and we know of course that those are never just feigned intentions to obscure nefarious objectives that always turn out to be true.
- btbuildem 1y ago
  How is it bewildering? It's one of the core tenets of authoritarianism. The fact that we're seeing these restrictions tighten is a symptom of the rise of authoritarian regimes.
  - g-b-r 1y ago
    They're promoted by politicians credibly democratic and not tantalized by authoritarianism
hopelite 1y ago
Can you clarify why you said "Humanity just doesn't ever learn."? It could be interpreted both ways. That the current regime believes its own actions will never be turned against them or, inversely, they will keep control over the tools of repression. Or it could be interpreted that you believe the governments implementing these narrow-sighted tyrannical measures are the "fascists" that will do things you don't like? I put "fascist" in quotes, because it has become an utterly useless and impressive term that is far more noise than signal due to imprecise and inaccurate overuse. Call them aristocrats, oligarchs, despots, tyrants, authoritarians... but saying that the ruling classes of most western societies are motivated by the metaphor of keeping together for strength is simply not a credible position.
mr90210 1y ago
> Europe will end up having draconian oversight and censorship that will be abused beyond belief by fascists. As a non-European, I see the benefits of the EU efforts, but I also see them (the suits in Brussels) getting hooked on power and control in the last ~7 years. As an example: "The EU Commission refuses to disclose the orchestrators behind its mass surveillance proposal, which would effectively end citizens’ online privacy." - https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1l2655n/the_eu_commission_refuses_to_disclose_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1l2655n/the_eu_comm... Edit: removed unnecessary content.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  Remove the commentary about downvotes, and you're less likely to be downvoted. The HN hivemind likes substantive comments.
  - mr90210 1y ago
    Done, thanks.
- chrisg23 1y ago
  It my impression that most people in the EU and outside of it think the citizens of the member countries can vote to replace that or change things, so its ok. Seems like something I'd be afraid of though if I were a EU citizen, or in a neighboring country the EU wants to absorb next.
- fn-mote 1y ago
  > I also see them […] getting hooked on power and control in the last ~7 years. Unfortunately it seems to be a worldwide trend. I think it would be shorter to list countries without serious (current) authoritarian tendencies.
- layer8 1y ago
  The EU Commission isn’t the EU Parliament, however, and then there’s also the European Court of Justice protecting the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. So it’s a bit more nuanced.
pinewurst 1y ago
Spain is already instituting registry for the press, a return to the days of Franco.
- bone_frequency 1y ago
  You seem to be implying that they have a right wing government.
  - pinewurst 1y ago
    Not at all, I believe authoritarianism is equal opportunity.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Funny how HN is so ideologically captured that they always assume authoritarian and fascist policies only come from the right and the left is alwasys the pure and righteous.
      - asyx 1y ago
        HM is distinctly more conservative than most other places online at least in my experience. Excluding the fascists safe spaces. At the moment, the right is what is pushing for authoritarianism in most western countries. And fascism is conservative in nature and not progressive. All fascist policies are by definition right wing but not all authoritarian policies are fascist. And if anything HN is really good at being weirdly against bread and butter social democratic policies. It’s an American website after all. I don’t think you could ever get away with discussing far left libertarian ideas on HN.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >HM is distinctly more conservative than most other places online at least in my experience. HN is the place of champagne socialists. They're on the side of making money with their actions but liberal with their voice at least they pretend to. >Excluding the fascists safe spaces. Define fascist safe spaces. Define fascism. >fascism is conservative in nature and not progressive Is it progressive to burn down Teslas and throw rocks at police doing their jobs and voice call to violence against certain races, religions of people or based on their political beliefs? >I don’t think you could ever get away with discussing far left libertarian ideas on HN. You definitely missed them.
77r7df8dodlldu 1y ago
Obviously your kind has no problem with stalinist EU regime using the means of surveillance and oppression right now.
- Mars008 1y ago
  Add to that president election show in Romania. Don't like candidate - just fake a case, block him from running, and when it becomes obvious don't apologize. It was for 'best results' after all.
TacticalCoder 1y ago
[dead]
antithesizer 1y ago
Humanity are a bunch of dolts.

Xeoncross 1y ago

> draconian oversight and censorship This is just human nature. Any place where humans live in close proximity for hundreds of years suffers the same fate until a revolution or power restructure resets the counter through the removal of the previous structures vestiges. Thanks to technology, it just keeps getting easier. Less time to put restrictive measures in place and a tighter feedback loop. Oh joy.

Santosh83 1y ago
I think you may have got it backwards? Technology seems to be greatly facilitating fascist control rather than weakening them...
- mystraline 1y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head. The original problem with The Panopticon was that it was 1 person in the center observing X amount of people. And at best, was a probabilistic 'am I being watched right now? ' with the answer of very low probability. For complete surveillance, you'd need a surveiller per watched. Enter technology. Now the surveillance isn't a person, but a set of computer programs. And, optimizing and analyzing the limited data flow out of a user is doable. And you then have computational spies everywhere. Most of them are limited to specific usecases. However the more data is shared, the tighter fascist control can be maintained. Then it just comes to 'detected event' and 'summon the secret police'.
  - bratwurst3000 1y ago
    this is on point. I tell this people since years. "if you share more data they have easyer acces to controll you"
  - wing-_-nuts 1y ago
    Not only that, a fascist state can identify people who are 'politically undesirable', then go back through the mountain of data held by private companies (facebook, google, chatbots, etc), trawl it to automatically create a dossier of kompromat, and apply pressure, repress voter turnout, etc.
    - retox 1y ago
      Yeah, a communist State would never
  - robotnikman 1y ago
    Isn't China already doing something like this?
    - redeeman 1y ago
      and the western countries
- Xeoncross 1y ago
  Perhaps my last sarcastic line was a bit obtuse. Technology is certainly making it easier to enact control and with a tighter feedback loop. Rabbit trail, it's interesting how the modern western evil is now branded as "fascist control" as opposed to the other forms common throughout history. I wonder if it's related to calling everyone "toxic". It seems culture is moving towards more vague definitions of evil/wrong instead of pin-pointing the actual faults. Perhaps this is an important part of "newspeak" that we're suffering from.
  - PeterStuer 1y ago
    "Fascist" has just become a synonym for "someone not from my tribe doing something I do not like". It's the sad state of semantic pollution.
hopelite 1y ago
Also technology has made psychological neutralization easier by various means including amusement, satisfying the hierarchy of needs in general, and of course scaling and expanding tyrannical surveillance and clandestine and targeted subversion of self-determination (see Alex Karp bragging about Palantir defusing the "rise of the far right" in Europe). And even this OP measure of banning the "Internet Archive Open Library" is in actuality a kind of outlawing of the modern from of the printing press, the control of information, consciousness, awareness, thought, and speech. It is an anathema to the very foundation of America, especially in the year of the 250 year anniversary of the American Revolution. 250 years ago today, Americans were already killing British for the human right to free speech and freedom from this kind of aristocratic despotism of the hereditary ruling class. > "[...]unprecedentedly broad site-blocking order that aims to restrict access to shadow libraries [...]. In addition to ISP blocks, the order also directs search engines, DNS resolvers, advertisers, domain name services, CDNs and hosting companies to take action." Is that any different than the King's decree to smash the printing presses to disseminate information beyond the control and censorship of the aristocracy and treasonous merchants that enabled their web of control?
seanw444 1y ago
And this is a cycle people have known about for forever. > The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
- LocalH 1y ago
  We're sorely behind schedule on that one.
ashoeafoot 1y ago
Its just leader caste nature, the fear of getting crushed by the momentum of ones "own" uncontrollable leadership running on a riff by situatuonal momentum. One can despair with a opera uniform and a detached steering wheel or run a "tight" ship, whipping the crew (who unlike groaning wood and ocean still obey) till moral improves.

g-b-r 1y ago

It's bewildering that this (and even more the attacks on privacy) occurs while authoritarianism is on the rise in the whole western whole, and partly realized in its leading country. They can't pretend anymore that it can't happen, but yet keep ignoring the risk

hopelite 1y ago
Imagine how people like me feel that have been warning of this for an unspecified number of decades now. I was told that I don't understand the internet and technology when I said that all these types of things would be happening, as it easily predicted if you even remotely integrate a basic understanding of human nature. Reality though is that, sure, you and me may for the time being be able to get around some of these efforts, but what does that matter when the vast majority already don't avail themselves of any of the subject resources, and the regime's control measures will only expand from here and will make it nearly impossible for even people like us to get access to things, let alone share them. My advice; try to "hoard" as much valuable information, data, and knowledge as possible; especially things regime really does not like and keep them offline and ideally in shielded storage. Maybe it will be for nothing and I am wrong, but maybe you may create the cache of human knowledge that survives into the future and humanity can uncover and recover from your "backup". We are really looking at a digital Fahrenheit 451 scenario or like when Kings and Bishops sent out their henchmen to smash printing presses and torture anyone who dared disseminate information that was not regime approved thought. It may not seem like it today, especially since it is all of course only about saving children and countering "piracy", and we know of course that those are never just feigned intentions to obscure nefarious objectives that always turn out to be true.
btbuildem 1y ago
How is it bewildering? It's one of the core tenets of authoritarianism. The fact that we're seeing these restrictions tighten is a symptom of the rise of authoritarian regimes.
- g-b-r 1y ago
  They're promoted by politicians credibly democratic and not tantalized by authoritarianism

hopelite 1y ago

Can you clarify why you said "Humanity just doesn't ever learn."? It could be interpreted both ways. That the current regime believes its own actions will never be turned against them or, inversely, they will keep control over the tools of repression. Or it could be interpreted that you believe the governments implementing these narrow-sighted tyrannical measures are the "fascists" that will do things you don't like? I put "fascist" in quotes, because it has become an utterly useless and impressive term that is far more noise than signal due to imprecise and inaccurate overuse. Call them aristocrats, oligarchs, despots, tyrants, authoritarians... but saying that the ruling classes of most western societies are motivated by the metaphor of keeping together for strength is simply not a credible position.

mr90210 1y ago

> Europe will end up having draconian oversight and censorship that will be abused beyond belief by fascists. As a non-European, I see the benefits of the EU efforts, but I also see them (the suits in Brussels) getting hooked on power and control in the last ~7 years. As an example: "The EU Commission refuses to disclose the orchestrators behind its mass surveillance proposal, which would effectively end citizens’ online privacy." - https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1l2655n/the_eu_commission_refuses_to_disclose_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1l2655n/the_eu_comm... Edit: removed unnecessary content.

wizzwizz4 1y ago
Remove the commentary about downvotes, and you're less likely to be downvoted. The HN hivemind likes substantive comments.
- mr90210 1y ago
  Done, thanks.
chrisg23 1y ago
It my impression that most people in the EU and outside of it think the citizens of the member countries can vote to replace that or change things, so its ok. Seems like something I'd be afraid of though if I were a EU citizen, or in a neighboring country the EU wants to absorb next.
fn-mote 1y ago
> I also see them […] getting hooked on power and control in the last ~7 years. Unfortunately it seems to be a worldwide trend. I think it would be shorter to list countries without serious (current) authoritarian tendencies.
layer8 1y ago
The EU Commission isn’t the EU Parliament, however, and then there’s also the European Court of Justice protecting the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. So it’s a bit more nuanced.

pinewurst 1y ago

Spain is already instituting registry for the press, a return to the days of Franco.

bone_frequency 1y ago
You seem to be implying that they have a right wing government.
- pinewurst 1y ago
  Not at all, I believe authoritarianism is equal opportunity.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Funny how HN is so ideologically captured that they always assume authoritarian and fascist policies only come from the right and the left is alwasys the pure and righteous.
    - asyx 1y ago
      HM is distinctly more conservative than most other places online at least in my experience. Excluding the fascists safe spaces. At the moment, the right is what is pushing for authoritarianism in most western countries. And fascism is conservative in nature and not progressive. All fascist policies are by definition right wing but not all authoritarian policies are fascist. And if anything HN is really good at being weirdly against bread and butter social democratic policies. It’s an American website after all. I don’t think you could ever get away with discussing far left libertarian ideas on HN.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >HM is distinctly more conservative than most other places online at least in my experience. HN is the place of champagne socialists. They're on the side of making money with their actions but liberal with their voice at least they pretend to. >Excluding the fascists safe spaces. Define fascist safe spaces. Define fascism. >fascism is conservative in nature and not progressive Is it progressive to burn down Teslas and throw rocks at police doing their jobs and voice call to violence against certain races, religions of people or based on their political beliefs? >I don’t think you could ever get away with discussing far left libertarian ideas on HN. You definitely missed them.

77r7df8dodlldu 1y ago

Obviously your kind has no problem with stalinist EU regime using the means of surveillance and oppression right now.

Mars008 1y ago
Add to that president election show in Romania. Don't like candidate - just fake a case, block him from running, and when it becomes obvious don't apologize. It was for 'best results' after all.

TacticalCoder 1y ago

[dead]

antithesizer 1y ago

Humanity are a bunch of dolts.