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>you can form your own judgement about who is telling the truth based on what little there is to go on Therein lies the danger. An outsider with little knowled

>you can form your own judgement about who is telling the truth based on what little there is to go on Therein lies the danger. An outsider with little knowledge cannot make a good judgement. Their judgement will be based on intangibles, such as "something similar happened to somebody I know, so I tend to believe X's account over Y's account". But that's not proof, or evidence, or anything really. It's just naked bias from a different situation applied to an unrelated one. Saying "history is replete with examples" is exactly that. If that is going to be used as a metric, then it is well worth it for men to consider that mentoring women carries with it a high degree of risk. No matter how you behave, a single accusation from somebody willing to lie or exaggerate--for whatever reason--will be supported and amplified using this same historical rationale.

wulfstan 1y ago
I do not accept that this is "naked bias". If the accusations are true, then this is yet another example of a pattern of behaviour played out so regularly, across cultures, centuries and communities, that it is boringly predictable: "Senior community member, almost always a man, sexually exploits vulnerable women seeking acceptance into that community." When a possible situation arises you should investigate it and, if there is reasonable evidence that it is true, do what you can to stamp it out and ensure it stops happening.
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  In Jon Pretty's case, if his account is true, it wasn't investigated. It was simply decided in a court of public opinion, quite possibly because of the historical metric you brought up. The only way you can ensure that it stops happening is strict segregation by sex, but I don't think that's what you'd want.
- throwaway290 1y ago
  If this was done bayesian style we could say the priors are man taking advantage of woman. 9 cases out of 10 if there is a rape case you can assume the perp is male and if you don't you are like a born yesterday idiot. And if you're a woman it's super important to keep it in mind, like you think of getting into elevator (or airbnb like in this case) alone with a random man you should not be like "let's not pre judge people". With wrong cancellation it's different because it's not an urgent situation and people should not ruin someone's life randomly. It would be stupid to force us to think "really there's a 50/50 chance if the rapist is that man or that woman" but if you say "there's a 50/50 chance if the guy is a creep or that woman is scheming something" then it can be not that wrong (depending on country) But in this case we still don't know who is wrong. This is the original letter https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-harassment-in-the-scala-community-9245b4a139de https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara... and it was not shown false. All that the courts said was "no evidence was provided". And the guy didn't clearly deny it in the letter as I understand it
  - Grimeton 1y ago
    > But in this case we still don't know who is wrong. This is the original letter https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara... and it was not shown false. All that the courts said was "no evidence was provided". And the guy didn't clearly deny it in the letter as I understand it Just as a reminder, it's: "Innocent until proven guilty." The accuser has to provide proof that what they say is right and until that happened the person is considered innocent.
    - throwaway290 1y ago
      You are quoting law concepts. If there was proof enough for legal action then "cancellation" would be not necessary right? Just go to jail for rape. Often problem behavior is not criminal enough OR there is no proof to make it criminal enough. If you were the victim what proof do you imagine your will have in this case? There would be no incriminating text messages. Everything is fine until he gets your college ass drunk in the privacy of own airbnb. The cards are stacked. A mature perp picks situation when there is no proof and no witnesses. And it is statistics that 9 out of 10 times it is a man. Maybe the only proof if any after this would be STDs. Do you want to announce to the world you have some incurable virus that you will spread to new partner who you would want to have kids with? etc Yea it sucks that fixing this mess makes men uncomfortable. If you are scared about getting drive by cancelled, you know who to blame. Other men.
      - SkiFire13 1y ago
        > You are quoting law concepts It's a concept based on the historic lesson that pushing innocent people is worse than not punishing guilty people. You seem to disagree though. > Yea it sucks that fixing This is shuffling which innocent gets to suffer, but is not fixing anything.
        throwaway290 1y ago
        The historic lesson is that men and especially men in power commonly abuse their position ranging from harassment to rape and legal system will fall over itself to serve them. That lesson led to metoo and stuff. Look it up. > This is shuffling which innocent gets to suffer, but is not fixing anything. Bro I really really hope you are not trying to compare wrongful cancellation and rape.
geysersam 1y ago
It's not as easy as some people make it out to be to create a believable story about abusive behavior. > then it is well worth it for men to consider that mentoring women You don't need to worry unless you're having sex with your mentees. If you do, then yeah maybe you need to think twice about that, and maybe that's not such a bad thing?
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  >You don't need to worry unless you're having sex with your mentees. "He exhibited problematic behavior. He touched me inappropriately. He cornered me in an elevator. He used demeaning language and made me feel unworthy." Zero sex involved, and these accusations can be completely true or untrue, depending on undefinable intangibles and individual interpretations.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    I know someone who was written up at work for what (after the investigation) amounted to "brief, unwanted eye contact" with a co-worker. It's kind of a minefield and casual, innocent behavior can easily be misinterpreted.
  - stickfigure 1y ago
    All of those things are far worse than having (consensual) sex with your mentees.
    - deltarholamda 1y ago
      What if "he cornered me in the elevator" was actually "he talked to me while we were alone together in the elevator, but I have background trauma that made this extremely uncomfortable for me". That's the point I was trying to make. One person's interpretation can be wildly different than another's interpretation of the same event. If we are going to assign preference to the interpretation that is the most damaging to both parties involved--she is traumatized, he is fired--then perhaps it is better to completely separate the sexes.

wulfstan 1y ago

I do not accept that this is "naked bias". If the accusations are true, then this is yet another example of a pattern of behaviour played out so regularly, across cultures, centuries and communities, that it is boringly predictable: "Senior community member, almost always a man, sexually exploits vulnerable women seeking acceptance into that community." When a possible situation arises you should investigate it and, if there is reasonable evidence that it is true, do what you can to stamp it out and ensure it stops happening.

deltarholamda 1y ago
In Jon Pretty's case, if his account is true, it wasn't investigated. It was simply decided in a court of public opinion, quite possibly because of the historical metric you brought up. The only way you can ensure that it stops happening is strict segregation by sex, but I don't think that's what you'd want.
throwaway290 1y ago
If this was done bayesian style we could say the priors are man taking advantage of woman. 9 cases out of 10 if there is a rape case you can assume the perp is male and if you don't you are like a born yesterday idiot. And if you're a woman it's super important to keep it in mind, like you think of getting into elevator (or airbnb like in this case) alone with a random man you should not be like "let's not pre judge people". With wrong cancellation it's different because it's not an urgent situation and people should not ruin someone's life randomly. It would be stupid to force us to think "really there's a 50/50 chance if the rapist is that man or that woman" but if you say "there's a 50/50 chance if the guy is a creep or that woman is scheming something" then it can be not that wrong (depending on country) But in this case we still don't know who is wrong. This is the original letter https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-harassment-in-the-scala-community-9245b4a139de https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara... and it was not shown false. All that the courts said was "no evidence was provided". And the guy didn't clearly deny it in the letter as I understand it
- Grimeton 1y ago
  > But in this case we still don't know who is wrong. This is the original letter https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara https://medium.com/@yifanxing/my-experience-with-sexual-hara... and it was not shown false. All that the courts said was "no evidence was provided". And the guy didn't clearly deny it in the letter as I understand it Just as a reminder, it's: "Innocent until proven guilty." The accuser has to provide proof that what they say is right and until that happened the person is considered innocent.
  - throwaway290 1y ago
    You are quoting law concepts. If there was proof enough for legal action then "cancellation" would be not necessary right? Just go to jail for rape. Often problem behavior is not criminal enough OR there is no proof to make it criminal enough. If you were the victim what proof do you imagine your will have in this case? There would be no incriminating text messages. Everything is fine until he gets your college ass drunk in the privacy of own airbnb. The cards are stacked. A mature perp picks situation when there is no proof and no witnesses. And it is statistics that 9 out of 10 times it is a man. Maybe the only proof if any after this would be STDs. Do you want to announce to the world you have some incurable virus that you will spread to new partner who you would want to have kids with? etc Yea it sucks that fixing this mess makes men uncomfortable. If you are scared about getting drive by cancelled, you know who to blame. Other men.
    - SkiFire13 1y ago
      > You are quoting law concepts It's a concept based on the historic lesson that pushing innocent people is worse than not punishing guilty people. You seem to disagree though. > Yea it sucks that fixing This is shuffling which innocent gets to suffer, but is not fixing anything.
      - throwaway290 1y ago
        The historic lesson is that men and especially men in power commonly abuse their position ranging from harassment to rape and legal system will fall over itself to serve them. That lesson led to metoo and stuff. Look it up. > This is shuffling which innocent gets to suffer, but is not fixing anything. Bro I really really hope you are not trying to compare wrongful cancellation and rape.

geysersam 1y ago

It's not as easy as some people make it out to be to create a believable story about abusive behavior. > then it is well worth it for men to consider that mentoring women You don't need to worry unless you're having sex with your mentees. If you do, then yeah maybe you need to think twice about that, and maybe that's not such a bad thing?

deltarholamda 1y ago
>You don't need to worry unless you're having sex with your mentees. "He exhibited problematic behavior. He touched me inappropriately. He cornered me in an elevator. He used demeaning language and made me feel unworthy." Zero sex involved, and these accusations can be completely true or untrue, depending on undefinable intangibles and individual interpretations.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ryandrake 1y ago
  I know someone who was written up at work for what (after the investigation) amounted to "brief, unwanted eye contact" with a co-worker. It's kind of a minefield and casual, innocent behavior can easily be misinterpreted.
- stickfigure 1y ago
  All of those things are far worse than having (consensual) sex with your mentees.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    What if "he cornered me in the elevator" was actually "he talked to me while we were alone together in the elevator, but I have background trauma that made this extremely uncomfortable for me". That's the point I was trying to make. One person's interpretation can be wildly different than another's interpretation of the same event. If we are going to assign preference to the interpretation that is the most damaging to both parties involved--she is traumatized, he is fired--then perhaps it is better to completely separate the sexes.