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The worst version of Si vis pacem, para bellum. There is an element of truth, but the reality is when one has overwhelming military over other, they also tend t

by maeln 1y ago

The worst version of Si vis pacem, para bellum. There is an element of truth, but the reality is when one has overwhelming military over other, they also tend to use it and cause wars. See USA / Irak.

nandomrumber 1y ago
If you want peace, prepare for war. What is the purpose of using Latin in this context?
- Arnt 1y ago
  The quote is old, as old as our month names, which are also Latin, and are Latin because that was the language spoken by the people who named them.
  - nandomrumber 1y ago
    Aren't only September, October, November, and December the only unchanged Latin month names?
    - throw0101d 1y ago
      > January (in Latin, Ianuarius) is named after Janus, the god of beginnings and transitions in Roman mythology.[1] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January#History > The Roman month Februarius was named after the Latin term februum, which means "purification", via the purification ritual Februa held on February 15 (full moon) in the old lunar Roman calendar. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February#History > The name of March comes from Martius, the first month of the earliest Roman calendar. It was named after Mars, the Roman god of war, and an ancestor of the Roman people through his sons Romulus and Remus. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March#History etc
      - lostmsu 1y ago
        Isn't July also named after Julius Cesar?
- maeln 1y ago
  This quote has a very long history, most people know the latin locution (like memento mori) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum
  - nandomrumber 1y ago
    I only knew memento mori from the Star Trek: Strange New Worlds E01S04 episode title. And I didn't know the Latin of the other phrase being discussed here... but I'm just a high school dropout blue collar worker, so I guess it depends at least to some extent who you associate with.
    - DemocracyFTW2 1y ago
      So if you're interested in Latin you might also find it noteworthy that some object to the translation of the phrase as If you want peace, prepare for war and argue that it was more likely understood as If you want peace, prepare for strife at the time, meaning that the Falcons in Roman politics often did the "so let's send in our boys there to clean up" thing which Rome in fact often did, whereas the Pigeons (doves?) in favor of a diplomatic or otherwise more civil way of conflict resolution found themselves too often in a position where they had to justify themselves and convince the other side with substantial arguments to keep them from exercising the unquestioned default option of the Empire which was, then as now, military intervention.
mschuster91 1y ago
> There is an element of truth, but the reality is when one has overwhelming military over other, they also tend to use it and cause wars. See USA / Irak. I actually don't have an issue with the idea of the Iraq war per se. Deposing dictators is always a good thing, dictators have no right to exist. The problem I have with the Iraq war was the completely botched execution, from start to finish. The start was based on the infamous WMD lies, the plans didn't include any concept on how the country should be run after the war, how to prevent warlords fighting over scraps, how to make sure democracy comes in and stays afterwards, and while the departure wasn't as bad as Afghanistan it wasn't clean either.
- karmakurtisaani 1y ago
  The problem with your thinking is that there was never a non-botched execution for the Iraq war. If you understood this before the invasion, it was very easy to be against the war.
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    > The problem with your thinking is that there was never a non-botched execution for the Iraq war. I don't buy that for a second. There is always a way to wage war and plan for the future of the invaded country afterwards. The Allied Forces have shown that this is both possible and sustainable with how they treated Germany post-WW2.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      I've been thinking about this for a while, in terms of WW2 with Germany, and especially with Japan. A completely alien culture (mind you, from both sides, I'm not exotizing Japan so much as emphasizing the limited contact pre WW2) that felt diametrically opposed to our very way of life, we waged total war, both sides committed atrocities and then the US dropped the two biggest bombs ever dropped in war on civilian populations, dismantled their government, and to this day have restrictions on their military. By all rights they should hate us bitterly, but our nations and our people quickly became close allies, friends even. Americans love Anime and romanticize Japanese cultural institutions, such as the baths, their transit, the technology and urbanization of Japanese cities. Japanese people love Jazz, and baseball, and there's just a lovely mutual respect and cultural cross-pollination between two cultures that, while more similar than they were in WW2, still have many differences. I know every situation is unique, and I think one of the advantages is that there was so little shared history, so little room for preexisting animosity, so both sides could say "Yeah, that was an unfortunate time, but we've realized our mistakes and get along now." But it still gives me hope for other seemingly intractable conflicts.

by maeln 1y ago

nandomrumber 1y ago

If you want peace, prepare for war. What is the purpose of using Latin in this context?

Arnt 1y ago
The quote is old, as old as our month names, which are also Latin, and are Latin because that was the language spoken by the people who named them.
- nandomrumber 1y ago
  Aren't only September, October, November, and December the only unchanged Latin month names?
  - throw0101d 1y ago
    > January (in Latin, Ianuarius) is named after Janus, the god of beginnings and transitions in Roman mythology.[1] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January#History > The Roman month Februarius was named after the Latin term februum, which means "purification", via the purification ritual Februa held on February 15 (full moon) in the old lunar Roman calendar. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February#History > The name of March comes from Martius, the first month of the earliest Roman calendar. It was named after Mars, the Roman god of war, and an ancestor of the Roman people through his sons Romulus and Remus. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March#History etc
    - lostmsu 1y ago
      Isn't July also named after Julius Cesar?
maeln 1y ago
This quote has a very long history, most people know the latin locution (like memento mori) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum
- nandomrumber 1y ago
  I only knew memento mori from the Star Trek: Strange New Worlds E01S04 episode title. And I didn't know the Latin of the other phrase being discussed here... but I'm just a high school dropout blue collar worker, so I guess it depends at least to some extent who you associate with.
  - DemocracyFTW2 1y ago
    So if you're interested in Latin you might also find it noteworthy that some object to the translation of the phrase as If you want peace, prepare for war and argue that it was more likely understood as If you want peace, prepare for strife at the time, meaning that the Falcons in Roman politics often did the "so let's send in our boys there to clean up" thing which Rome in fact often did, whereas the Pigeons (doves?) in favor of a diplomatic or otherwise more civil way of conflict resolution found themselves too often in a position where they had to justify themselves and convince the other side with substantial arguments to keep them from exercising the unquestioned default option of the Empire which was, then as now, military intervention.

mschuster91 1y ago

> There is an element of truth, but the reality is when one has overwhelming military over other, they also tend to use it and cause wars. See USA / Irak. I actually don't have an issue with the idea of the Iraq war per se. Deposing dictators is always a good thing, dictators have no right to exist. The problem I have with the Iraq war was the completely botched execution, from start to finish. The start was based on the infamous WMD lies, the plans didn't include any concept on how the country should be run after the war, how to prevent warlords fighting over scraps, how to make sure democracy comes in and stays afterwards, and while the departure wasn't as bad as Afghanistan it wasn't clean either.

karmakurtisaani 1y ago
The problem with your thinking is that there was never a non-botched execution for the Iraq war. If you understood this before the invasion, it was very easy to be against the war.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  > The problem with your thinking is that there was never a non-botched execution for the Iraq war. I don't buy that for a second. There is always a way to wage war and plan for the future of the invaded country afterwards. The Allied Forces have shown that this is both possible and sustainable with how they treated Germany post-WW2.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    I've been thinking about this for a while, in terms of WW2 with Germany, and especially with Japan. A completely alien culture (mind you, from both sides, I'm not exotizing Japan so much as emphasizing the limited contact pre WW2) that felt diametrically opposed to our very way of life, we waged total war, both sides committed atrocities and then the US dropped the two biggest bombs ever dropped in war on civilian populations, dismantled their government, and to this day have restrictions on their military. By all rights they should hate us bitterly, but our nations and our people quickly became close allies, friends even. Americans love Anime and romanticize Japanese cultural institutions, such as the baths, their transit, the technology and urbanization of Japanese cities. Japanese people love Jazz, and baseball, and there's just a lovely mutual respect and cultural cross-pollination between two cultures that, while more similar than they were in WW2, still have many differences. I know every situation is unique, and I think one of the advantages is that there was so little shared history, so little room for preexisting animosity, so both sides could say "Yeah, that was an unfortunate time, but we've realized our mistakes and get along now." But it still gives me hope for other seemingly intractable conflicts.