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What confuses me most is when you are given the option to give a tip before any service has been given. On deliveroo, for example, I have the option to tip the

What confuses me most is when you are given the option to give a tip before any service has been given. On deliveroo, for example, I have the option to tip the driver while I'm at the checkout. Why would I give a reward for good service when I have no idea if the service is even good? There's already a rider fee as part of my bill, so it doesn't make any sense to me to give them more money at that point

bongripper 1y ago
[dead]
jama211 1y ago
They’re just saying the quiet part out loud, the tip isn’t for service, it’s for their basic wage.
viraptor 1y ago
That's bad, but even worse is the Bluetti website, which asks you for a service tip FOR AN ONLINE ORDER!
- gosub100 1y ago
  I started using Fiverr for outsourcing some tasks and they push you to tip after the transaction.
xiphias2 1y ago
It might be a way for them to prioritize your order before others as they see how much money they earn, so actually it's a bidding process disguised as tipping. I'm not sure if it's shown in the backend though, but I have seen things like this in other delivery apps.
- technothrasher 1y ago
  Why would they prioritize you when you've already paid? Wouldn't they first go after the possibility of more tip money on jobs that haven't yet paid it? I mean, if I was a driver, unless there are more high tip jobs than I could handle, I'd take those and fill in with low tip jobs, and I'd deliver the low tip jobs first in a hope of getting an after the fact tip.
  - ldoughty 1y ago
    Delivery drivers on some apps are told the expected pay for a trip. If you don't tip, they might decline the job because it costs them more to deliver then they make. This makes your order sit longer until someone decides to do it, perhaps because there's a penalty from the company for declining jobs, and the driver is willing to lose money to remain in good standing
    - taneq 1y ago
      So it’s hiding behind social pressure to externalise costs? Which I guess is tipping in general.
  - taneq 1y ago
    Ooh that’s actually a really interesting question. Because you’ve retroactively signaled that you will pay more for priority service? Or that you’re dumb. Needs to be iterated. Incentives depend strongly on population of both drivers and customers.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- cons0le 1y ago
  A lot of times, that makes the order come slower. A higher tip means the app will pair your order with someone else that didn't tip or tipped smaller, using your money to make up the difference. I consistently get faster deliveries when I tip towards "the average" instead of over tipping
  - taneq 1y ago
    Why would you keep using an app that you suspect was cynically exploiting your generosity like that? I’d drive every time rather than encourage such behaviour.
    - jasode 1y ago
      >Why would you keep using an app that you suspect was cynically exploiting your generosity like that? I’d drive every time rather than encourage such behaviour. Surely you already know that choosing things doesn't always simplify down to a single dimension. Instead, there are multiple factors that lead people to deliberately choose options that have negatives. E.g. Why do people continue to use Ryanair airlines if they always nickel & dime customers and treat them like shit?!? Because the mistreatment by Ryanair is still better than driving for 6 hours or paying more $$$ for Air France or KLM. Likewise, why do customers continue playing along with the tips/bribery/ransom game in the delivery app?!? Because the user-hostile app is still better than rounding up the small toddlers and infant into the car, fasten the car seat, and drive to the restaurant. Life doesn't always provide unambiguous good options. Instead, you choose the "least bad" from the list of bad options.
yieldcrv 1y ago
we can regulate the intermediary we can literally get the state to say it is illegal for the point of sale system to have that or sell that to merchants we can tie it to business codes that dictate which type of business it is to payment processors control behavior by regulating the intermediary the beauty of this philosophy is that it works under any system of government: don’t worry about the rights afforded to merchants or individuals, don’t burden them with the law at all, only intermediaries! poof, tips at the point of sale system before receiving service disappears as fast as it came, short Square (now Block) we can go deeper too
huvarda 1y ago
In a Louis Rossmann video (i think it was the one on food delivery guys on e-bikes) he mentions never tipping in app but leaving a note that says he will give a cash tip if the driver brings the food straight to his door. That seems like a decent compromise as it doesn't let the app take a cut from the tip and makes so the driver actually goes the extra mile to 'deserve' the tip.
- walterbell 1y ago
  Thank you for this tip on analog defense against digital dark patterns!
- alexriddle 1y ago
  Weirdly on Reddit I keep getting the doordash and ubereats communities pushed at me - there is a very strong view amongst people using these apps that anyone who says they will "give a cash tip" will not actually do it, so it's probably not as beneficial as you might think. The tips on the apps nominally do go entirely to the driver.
- coldtea 1y ago
  >* but leaving a note that says he will give a cash tip if the driver brings the food straight to his door.* Why, where else would they take the food? Leave in at the patio? Drop it on the lawn?
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Leaving it on the porch, on the street closest to their car, with the front lobby in an apartment building... There's quite a lot of places people will think to leave food if they're rushing to pick up another job.
  - account42 1y ago
    Some people live in multi-tenant buildings where "your door" is not the buildings entrance.
    - 1y ago
NullifyNAN 1y ago
You’re not paying for a service, you’re bidding in an open market. They don’t tell you this but it’s the reality. Drivers can tell if you don’t tip and all of the experienced ones will decline your order. Though these apps have done a lot of work to conceal the amount the driver actually gets until delivery is completed.
- okr 1y ago
  Hm. If it is an open market, the consumer should also be able to decline/filter drivers, that take tips. Maybe it is a market, but sadly not open.
  - brendanjbond 1y ago
    You can already filter out drivers that don't take tips (so, filter to zero) by just not placing the order.
    - chii 1y ago
      But that filter is at best inaccurate then isnt it? Surely there exists a driver which would accept a tipless delivery, but you cannot find them because all you can do is decline to do business. Americans need to remove the idea of tipping. It's archaic, because it was originally there for an aristocratic/wealthy patron to show off their status to the lowly servants of an establishment. Just charge a price, and have it include the full service fee required for providing the service.
      - incone123 1y ago
        If you enter zero tip then you will find drivers who accept that because the rest won't accept.
- kawsper 1y ago
  With Wolt the rider can’t see tips until after delivery.
f1shy 1y ago
Is almost like a bribe I guess?
logifail 1y ago
> when you are given the option to give a tip before any service has been given [...] why would I give a reward for good service Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"? I'm trying to imagine a curve representing the distribution of "quality of service". What shape is the curve, and where on it would a 20% tip and a 0% tip be?
- froddd 1y ago
  > Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"? Sad if this is no longer the case. In the UK at least (and the rest of Europe too, as far as I can tell), this is still very much the case. The curve varies with the individuals tipping. I would be quite happy to give 20% if the service was outstanding. I’m equally happy to not tip at all if the service was very poor.
  - liotier 1y ago
    France here - no tip is the norm, tip is for service above & beyond... But, contrary to the USA, everyone gets a proper living wage !
    - lesser-shadow 1y ago
      The only issue with restaurants in France is that they close up early, or only open within strict lunch hours.
      - sokoloff 1y ago
        If you're paying a relatively high hourly wage to all of the staff, it seems unsurprising that you'd not want to be open during times of low customer traffic. Honestly, this seems good overall; there's no more sense in having low-paid waitstaff hanging around hoping to get a customer table that will tip than in having a restaurant owner keep the restaurant open while paying the staff a reasonable hourly wage.
    - nobleach 1y ago
quickthrowman 1y ago
A delivery app tip is a way to influence drivers to pick your order, they can see what the expected value of a delivery is and if your tip is too low, your order will take a while. Consider it a premium that prioritizes your order, that’s what it actually is.
sharperguy 1y ago
It's mostly a convenience, so that you don't have to look for coins or remember to tip online later. Uber here even tells you that the driver doesn't get informed about the tip until an hour after delivery, so you can still edit it in case you change your mind.
gmadsen 1y ago
It is a mechanism to move labor costs to the consumer. On some delivery apps , the driver can decide which jobs to take based on the pre-service tip. So the companies have effectively put the responsibility to pay driver's base wage on the users themselves, while the company still takes a huge corporate cut
- vladvasiliu 1y ago
  > It is a mechanism to move labor costs to the consumer. How does this work? The corp already handles some form of payment to the worker, especially when you tip as part of a card payment. And in both cases, the consumer foots the bill. How's it different from paying the worker more and asking for more money upfront?
  - gmadsen 1y ago
    psychologically they are very different. Framing the wages as a "tip" moves the conversation to the drivers and users, where users think tips are an out of hand culture problem and drivers view the users as stingy. Then the company sits out of the spotlight collecting their absurd rents
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - shit_game 1y ago
    It moves the real cost of the additional labor from the prices displayed for items (like you would see in a B&M grocery store) to some tertiary part of the purchase process that is displayed 1) after the used has gone through the effort of app navigation and selecting their purchases and 2) has been through the majority of the purchase funnel and self-selected as a high-prospect sale. This helps keep the listed prices for items in these apps relatively comparable to their in-store listed prices, acting to convince the user the sale is reasonable (similar to online sellers making up for low listed prices with high shipping prices). Moving this additional cost to some tertiary step lessens the impact of goods pricing seeming too high by adding a "small optional fee" at the end of the purchase process that the user is expected to subconciously understand is effectively a bid on labor. I'd imagine the psychology behind it is depressing.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 1y ago
Tipping is more like a form of price discrimination. It allows restaurants to indirectly charge different customers different amounts based on ability to pay.
HamsterDan 1y ago
That's not a tip, it's a bid. Expect a lot more businesses to start operating like this if no tax on tips goes into effect.
WaitWaitWha 1y ago
Tip before service is a bribe in my book. (Uber started to pop up tip options before the ride ends, sometimes as soon as the ride starts.)

bongripper 1y ago

[dead]

jama211 1y ago

They’re just saying the quiet part out loud, the tip isn’t for service, it’s for their basic wage.

viraptor 1y ago

That's bad, but even worse is the Bluetti website, which asks you for a service tip FOR AN ONLINE ORDER!

gosub100 1y ago
I started using Fiverr for outsourcing some tasks and they push you to tip after the transaction.

xiphias2 1y ago

It might be a way for them to prioritize your order before others as they see how much money they earn, so actually it's a bidding process disguised as tipping. I'm not sure if it's shown in the backend though, but I have seen things like this in other delivery apps.

technothrasher 1y ago
Why would they prioritize you when you've already paid? Wouldn't they first go after the possibility of more tip money on jobs that haven't yet paid it? I mean, if I was a driver, unless there are more high tip jobs than I could handle, I'd take those and fill in with low tip jobs, and I'd deliver the low tip jobs first in a hope of getting an after the fact tip.
- ldoughty 1y ago
  Delivery drivers on some apps are told the expected pay for a trip. If you don't tip, they might decline the job because it costs them more to deliver then they make. This makes your order sit longer until someone decides to do it, perhaps because there's a penalty from the company for declining jobs, and the driver is willing to lose money to remain in good standing
  - taneq 1y ago
    So it’s hiding behind social pressure to externalise costs? Which I guess is tipping in general.
- taneq 1y ago
  Ooh that’s actually a really interesting question. Because you’ve retroactively signaled that you will pay more for priority service? Or that you’re dumb. Needs to be iterated. Incentives depend strongly on population of both drivers and customers.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
cons0le 1y ago
A lot of times, that makes the order come slower. A higher tip means the app will pair your order with someone else that didn't tip or tipped smaller, using your money to make up the difference. I consistently get faster deliveries when I tip towards "the average" instead of over tipping
- taneq 1y ago
  Why would you keep using an app that you suspect was cynically exploiting your generosity like that? I’d drive every time rather than encourage such behaviour.
  - jasode 1y ago
    >Why would you keep using an app that you suspect was cynically exploiting your generosity like that? I’d drive every time rather than encourage such behaviour. Surely you already know that choosing things doesn't always simplify down to a single dimension. Instead, there are multiple factors that lead people to deliberately choose options that have negatives. E.g. Why do people continue to use Ryanair airlines if they always nickel & dime customers and treat them like shit?!? Because the mistreatment by Ryanair is still better than driving for 6 hours or paying more $$$ for Air France or KLM. Likewise, why do customers continue playing along with the tips/bribery/ransom game in the delivery app?!? Because the user-hostile app is still better than rounding up the small toddlers and infant into the car, fasten the car seat, and drive to the restaurant. Life doesn't always provide unambiguous good options. Instead, you choose the "least bad" from the list of bad options.

yieldcrv 1y ago

we can regulate the intermediary we can literally get the state to say it is illegal for the point of sale system to have that or sell that to merchants we can tie it to business codes that dictate which type of business it is to payment processors control behavior by regulating the intermediary the beauty of this philosophy is that it works under any system of government: don’t worry about the rights afforded to merchants or individuals, don’t burden them with the law at all, only intermediaries! poof, tips at the point of sale system before receiving service disappears as fast as it came, short Square (now Block) we can go deeper too

huvarda 1y ago

In a Louis Rossmann video (i think it was the one on food delivery guys on e-bikes) he mentions never tipping in app but leaving a note that says he will give a cash tip if the driver brings the food straight to his door. That seems like a decent compromise as it doesn't let the app take a cut from the tip and makes so the driver actually goes the extra mile to 'deserve' the tip.

walterbell 1y ago
Thank you for this tip on analog defense against digital dark patterns!
alexriddle 1y ago
Weirdly on Reddit I keep getting the doordash and ubereats communities pushed at me - there is a very strong view amongst people using these apps that anyone who says they will "give a cash tip" will not actually do it, so it's probably not as beneficial as you might think. The tips on the apps nominally do go entirely to the driver.
coldtea 1y ago
>* but leaving a note that says he will give a cash tip if the driver brings the food straight to his door.* Why, where else would they take the food? Leave in at the patio? Drop it on the lawn?
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Leaving it on the porch, on the street closest to their car, with the front lobby in an apartment building... There's quite a lot of places people will think to leave food if they're rushing to pick up another job.
- account42 1y ago
  Some people live in multi-tenant buildings where "your door" is not the buildings entrance.
  - 1y ago

NullifyNAN 1y ago

You’re not paying for a service, you’re bidding in an open market. They don’t tell you this but it’s the reality. Drivers can tell if you don’t tip and all of the experienced ones will decline your order. Though these apps have done a lot of work to conceal the amount the driver actually gets until delivery is completed.

okr 1y ago
Hm. If it is an open market, the consumer should also be able to decline/filter drivers, that take tips. Maybe it is a market, but sadly not open.
- brendanjbond 1y ago
  You can already filter out drivers that don't take tips (so, filter to zero) by just not placing the order.
  - chii 1y ago
    But that filter is at best inaccurate then isnt it? Surely there exists a driver which would accept a tipless delivery, but you cannot find them because all you can do is decline to do business. Americans need to remove the idea of tipping. It's archaic, because it was originally there for an aristocratic/wealthy patron to show off their status to the lowly servants of an establishment. Just charge a price, and have it include the full service fee required for providing the service.
    - incone123 1y ago
      If you enter zero tip then you will find drivers who accept that because the rest won't accept.
kawsper 1y ago
With Wolt the rider can’t see tips until after delivery.

f1shy 1y ago

Is almost like a bribe I guess?

logifail 1y ago

> when you are given the option to give a tip before any service has been given [...] why would I give a reward for good service Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"? I'm trying to imagine a curve representing the distribution of "quality of service". What shape is the curve, and where on it would a 20% tip and a 0% tip be?

froddd 1y ago
> Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"? Sad if this is no longer the case. In the UK at least (and the rest of Europe too, as far as I can tell), this is still very much the case. The curve varies with the individuals tipping. I would be quite happy to give 20% if the service was outstanding. I’m equally happy to not tip at all if the service was very poor.
- liotier 1y ago
  France here - no tip is the norm, tip is for service above & beyond... But, contrary to the USA, everyone gets a proper living wage !
  - lesser-shadow 1y ago
    The only issue with restaurants in France is that they close up early, or only open within strict lunch hours.
    - sokoloff 1y ago
      If you're paying a relatively high hourly wage to all of the staff, it seems unsurprising that you'd not want to be open during times of low customer traffic. Honestly, this seems good overall; there's no more sense in having low-paid waitstaff hanging around hoping to get a customer table that will tip than in having a restaurant owner keep the restaurant open while paying the staff a reasonable hourly wage.
  - nobleach 1y ago

quickthrowman 1y ago

A delivery app tip is a way to influence drivers to pick your order, they can see what the expected value of a delivery is and if your tip is too low, your order will take a while. Consider it a premium that prioritizes your order, that’s what it actually is.

sharperguy 1y ago

It's mostly a convenience, so that you don't have to look for coins or remember to tip online later. Uber here even tells you that the driver doesn't get informed about the tip until an hour after delivery, so you can still edit it in case you change your mind.

gmadsen 1y ago

It is a mechanism to move labor costs to the consumer. On some delivery apps , the driver can decide which jobs to take based on the pre-service tip. So the companies have effectively put the responsibility to pay driver's base wage on the users themselves, while the company still takes a huge corporate cut

vladvasiliu 1y ago
> It is a mechanism to move labor costs to the consumer. How does this work? The corp already handles some form of payment to the worker, especially when you tip as part of a card payment. And in both cases, the consumer foots the bill. How's it different from paying the worker more and asking for more money upfront?
- gmadsen 1y ago
  psychologically they are very different. Framing the wages as a "tip" moves the conversation to the drivers and users, where users think tips are an out of hand culture problem and drivers view the users as stingy. Then the company sits out of the spotlight collecting their absurd rents
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- shit_game 1y ago
  It moves the real cost of the additional labor from the prices displayed for items (like you would see in a B&M grocery store) to some tertiary part of the purchase process that is displayed 1) after the used has gone through the effort of app navigation and selecting their purchases and 2) has been through the majority of the purchase funnel and self-selected as a high-prospect sale. This helps keep the listed prices for items in these apps relatively comparable to their in-store listed prices, acting to convince the user the sale is reasonable (similar to online sellers making up for low listed prices with high shipping prices). Moving this additional cost to some tertiary step lessens the impact of goods pricing seeming too high by adding a "small optional fee" at the end of the purchase process that the user is expected to subconciously understand is effectively a bid on labor. I'd imagine the psychology behind it is depressing.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 1y ago

Tipping is more like a form of price discrimination. It allows restaurants to indirectly charge different customers different amounts based on ability to pay.

HamsterDan 1y ago

That's not a tip, it's a bid. Expect a lot more businesses to start operating like this if no tax on tips goes into effect.

WaitWaitWha 1y ago

Tip before service is a bribe in my book. (Uber started to pop up tip options before the ride ends, sometimes as soon as the ride starts.)