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Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

by Havoc 1y ago

RegnisGnaw 1y ago
China has shown the world the way and most countries likes it.
- yupyupyups 1y ago
  No, people don't like this.
  - andrepd 1y ago
    People don't but those with power (i.e. the people who matter) do.
  - jeltz 1y ago
    Most ordinary people don't but they still vote for authoritarian politicians who like it.
    - Saline9515 1y ago
      Most politicians don't support explicitly such measures. This is a technocratic law, result of a weak consensus in the EU. You don't vote for your Homeland Secretary minister. EU PM don't usually campaign for such issues. This is a failure of representative democracy.
  - sneak 1y ago
    A lot of people feel they have nothing to hide and don’t feel strongly one way or the other on privacy, but they do like feeling safe and secure from crime and “bad things”. It’s a dangerous and destructive worldview, because they benefit immensely from the small percentage of society that absolutely does need privacy.
    - consp 1y ago
      > A lot of people feel they have nothing to hide and don’t feel strongly one way or the other on privacy People think that, but once you tell them they will lose their drivers license since they chatted to their spouse about bad eyesight they bark differently. Or shrug it off with "that will never happen to me" and you can start the "and then they came for the [next group], but I did nothing" line of talk. Everyone has something to hide, they might just not know yet what it is but they will when the option to hide it has gone away. There is a reason my country stopped recording religion since 1946 in the citizen records, it was fine to do so decades before.
  - est 1y ago
    Chinese ppl don't like this either. It's teleco vendors, ISPs and govn't agencies are advocating this.
- mcdonje 1y ago
  lmao, like every other major power has been a bastion of free speech until China came up. McCarthyism, what? Politkovskaya, who?
  - tavavex 1y ago
    Censorship and killing people who were too "out of line" were staples of human civilization ever since we started figuring out governance. What's unique about China is that it was a pioneer in capturing this new technology and using it to their state's advantage. Never before in human history could you monitor all the things people said to one another, all the money that got exchanged, all data that's uploaded and downloaded, and have automation that ensures that everyone's information is looked at. The internet had become a tool of centralized control, China just was successful at realizing it first.
- LexiMax 1y ago
  They seem to be missing a critical piece - for the horrors that China inflicted on its own population, it also become a preeminent world power and pulled millions out of poverty. What seems to be happening elsewhere is an organized robbery of state institutions by politicians and oligarchs, with oppression and censorship used to keep people from pointing out the obvious. Maybe they're not paying attention to the part of that cycle where they start falling out of windows.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - betaby 1y ago
    > pulled millions out of poverty but firstly the policies of the very same party put millions into poverty and famine
  - rockskon 1y ago
    Becoming a preeminent world power was orthogonal to them instituting mass domestic surveillance, public humiliation, and selective ethnic cleansing.
    - LexiMax 1y ago
      I upvoted you because you bring up a good point and I want to make clear that I'm not excusing their horrendous behavior or trying to imply that the good necessarily requires or even outweighs the bad. I'm merely pointing out that at the very least, there was _some_ upside to go with the downside, at least for a while, and the upside was a planned outcome by its political leadership. I don't think it was always that way, and it's too soon to tell if its current leadership is similarly wise or just coasting off of past successes.
      - rockskon 1y ago
        I was saying their domestic mass surveillance is not directly tied to them becoming a preeminent world power. That their rise could've just as well happened without it.
anaisbetts 1y ago
The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit?
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit? Simple: A Cypherpunk's Manifesto by Eric Hughes written 9 March 1993 https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html
  - prophesi 1y ago
    I don't think there are actionable items in that manifesto, and was written during the RSA munitions debate.
    - atoav 1y ago
      I'd argue the actionable things are already happening: Hackers and cryptographers creating technical solutions that defy governmental control, people trying to sway public opinion (or trying to get people to realize that being surveilled isn't just about their secret it is about a fundamental balance of powers between companies/governments and individuals). All of those things are pushed by people right now. Maybe the scale isn't right, maybe the effort needs you as well.
    - kpcyrd 1y ago
      The actionable items are "write code" and "build systems". The cypherpunk scene is still alive and evolving, but it's fairly niche, and a tough environment for people driven by external validation while 'things are well'. But there are still people around making sure the necessary pieces are in place in case they become necessary.
maldonad0 1y ago
And there is no non-violent solution
- octo888 1y ago
  Which is why you see eg UK making it illegal to demonstrate, want more backdoors in communication tech (so they can scan for wrongthink), going harder banning free speech etc

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

by Havoc 1y ago

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

RegnisGnaw 1y ago

China has shown the world the way and most countries likes it.

yupyupyups 1y ago
No, people don't like this.
- andrepd 1y ago
  People don't but those with power (i.e. the people who matter) do.
- jeltz 1y ago
  Most ordinary people don't but they still vote for authoritarian politicians who like it.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    Most politicians don't support explicitly such measures. This is a technocratic law, result of a weak consensus in the EU. You don't vote for your Homeland Secretary minister. EU PM don't usually campaign for such issues. This is a failure of representative democracy.
- sneak 1y ago
  A lot of people feel they have nothing to hide and don’t feel strongly one way or the other on privacy, but they do like feeling safe and secure from crime and “bad things”. It’s a dangerous and destructive worldview, because they benefit immensely from the small percentage of society that absolutely does need privacy.
  - consp 1y ago
    > A lot of people feel they have nothing to hide and don’t feel strongly one way or the other on privacy People think that, but once you tell them they will lose their drivers license since they chatted to their spouse about bad eyesight they bark differently. Or shrug it off with "that will never happen to me" and you can start the "and then they came for the [next group], but I did nothing" line of talk. Everyone has something to hide, they might just not know yet what it is but they will when the option to hide it has gone away. There is a reason my country stopped recording religion since 1946 in the citizen records, it was fine to do so decades before.
- est 1y ago
  Chinese ppl don't like this either. It's teleco vendors, ISPs and govn't agencies are advocating this.
mcdonje 1y ago
lmao, like every other major power has been a bastion of free speech until China came up. McCarthyism, what? Politkovskaya, who?
- tavavex 1y ago
  Censorship and killing people who were too "out of line" were staples of human civilization ever since we started figuring out governance. What's unique about China is that it was a pioneer in capturing this new technology and using it to their state's advantage. Never before in human history could you monitor all the things people said to one another, all the money that got exchanged, all data that's uploaded and downloaded, and have automation that ensures that everyone's information is looked at. The internet had become a tool of centralized control, China just was successful at realizing it first.
LexiMax 1y ago
They seem to be missing a critical piece - for the horrors that China inflicted on its own population, it also become a preeminent world power and pulled millions out of poverty. What seems to be happening elsewhere is an organized robbery of state institutions by politicians and oligarchs, with oppression and censorship used to keep people from pointing out the obvious. Maybe they're not paying attention to the part of that cycle where they start falling out of windows.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- betaby 1y ago
  > pulled millions out of poverty but firstly the policies of the very same party put millions into poverty and famine
- rockskon 1y ago
  Becoming a preeminent world power was orthogonal to them instituting mass domestic surveillance, public humiliation, and selective ethnic cleansing.
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    I upvoted you because you bring up a good point and I want to make clear that I'm not excusing their horrendous behavior or trying to imply that the good necessarily requires or even outweighs the bad. I'm merely pointing out that at the very least, there was _some_ upside to go with the downside, at least for a while, and the upside was a planned outcome by its political leadership. I don't think it was always that way, and it's too soon to tell if its current leadership is similarly wise or just coasting off of past successes.
    - rockskon 1y ago
      I was saying their domestic mass surveillance is not directly tied to them becoming a preeminent world power. That their rise could've just as well happened without it.

anaisbetts 1y ago

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit?

aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> Question is, how do we get ourselves out of this tar pit? Simple: A Cypherpunk's Manifesto by Eric Hughes written 9 March 1993 https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html
- prophesi 1y ago
  I don't think there are actionable items in that manifesto, and was written during the RSA munitions debate.
  - atoav 1y ago
    I'd argue the actionable things are already happening: Hackers and cryptographers creating technical solutions that defy governmental control, people trying to sway public opinion (or trying to get people to realize that being surveilled isn't just about their secret it is about a fundamental balance of powers between companies/governments and individuals). All of those things are pushed by people right now. Maybe the scale isn't right, maybe the effort needs you as well.
  - kpcyrd 1y ago
    The actionable items are "write code" and "build systems". The cypherpunk scene is still alive and evolving, but it's fairly niche, and a tough environment for people driven by external validation while 'things are well'. But there are still people around making sure the necessary pieces are in place in case they become necessary.

maldonad0 1y ago

And there is no non-violent solution

octo888 1y ago
Which is why you see eg UK making it illegal to demonstrate, want more backdoors in communication tech (so they can scan for wrongthink), going harder banning free speech etc