3 ms·

Kinda like reading a long, moralizing screed against a proposed law declaring pi to be 3.00. Perhaps I know the subject too well. Or should quietly accept tha

Kinda like reading a long, moralizing screed against a proposed law declaring pi to be 3.00. Perhaps I know the subject too well. Or should quietly accept that The Atlantic needs a lot of click-fodder to pay the bills.

stego-tech 1y ago
That’s The Atlantic for you: raising a decent point in the headline, and then squandering the article whining like a toddler who didn’t get candy at the checkout lane. Taking the headline at face value, though, they’re not wrong at all, and this is something I’ve tried warning folks over myself for several years now. Our collective response to COVID was truly the alarm bells going off (vaccine conspiracies, anti-masking, denialism, etc), and now we’re seeing an anti-science (and anti-reality) administration celebrate the gutting of our scientific prestige in the name of nostalgia for -isms. While authors and commentators are handwringing over whether the US is “cooked” scientifically, those in the know or who are observant already know the answer is an emphatic YES. With the present attack on science, we’ve effectively outsourced one of the last remaining industries that kept us afloat as an empire. We have no real manufacturing (at least of anything others want), and what we do make is of decreasing quality so that shareholders can get paid (e.g. Boeing jets, American cars, and now even SIG handguns - if we can’t make decent planes, cars, and guns, then what do we even export besides raw materials/agriculture?). Without science driving R&D, we won’t even have the patents on innovative new medicines, technologies, or energy sources that we can export abroad. So yeah. We’re done as an Empire. This isn’t something we can roll back next election, and I don’t think the current crop of Americans have felt enough pain to suddenly grow cooperative and engage in self-sacrifice for the greater good.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  I agree with most of what you wrote, but: > American cars, and now even SIG handguns SIG is a German/Swiss company, not American. American cars vary in quality wildly by manufacturer, with Stellantis being the worst offender of what you describe but Chevrolet being the least bad (at the moment).
  - Zigurd 1y ago
    Both Sig Sauer and Glock have US manufacturing. Currently, it appears that all Sig guns are made in the US and Sig is the biggest exporter of guns. American gun culture and the gun business in America is a huge outlier internationally. I would find it hard to think of why that would be healthy.
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      This misses the point. The person I replied to was saying that American manufacturing was trending towards lower quality because of a shift in culture in American companies that sacrificed quality for profit. The fact that Sig guns are manufactured in the US, or the fact that they are guns as opposed to some other product, are not actually relevant to that. Since Sig is a German company, then one would expect that they would not be subject to the same drop in quality OP described. Since they are, that indicates that the problem described is present in Europe as well and is not a uniquely American phenomenon.
- foobarian 1y ago
  The only reason we even had good science is the arms race. When there was a threat of someone else getting nukes or radar then the anti-science cohorts were silenced with a quickness, and large percentages of GDP were thrown at R&D, including poaching scientists from abroad, to get there first. With nothing like that looming right now, there is no check and balance on the anti-science regiment, and so sliding downhill we go. Sadly I don't see this changing either, unless theoretical physicists turn up the basis for some new weapon.
  - nradov 1y ago
    We've been in another arms race with China since at least 2017 (and perhaps another space race as well).
- stocksinsmocks 1y ago
  I agree that COVID response was the canary in the coal mine for exactly the opposite reason you do. Funny how it works both ways. Nobody is happy, and we’re living at the end of an age of decency staring into the abyss of mass-psychosis and catastrophe as we somehow always have been. Maybe it’s OK. I don’t have to think about predators, which bugs are edible, and I have an entertainment rectangle in my pocket that I can use to tease people on the internet.
- swed420 1y ago
  > Our collective response to COVID was truly the alarm bells going off (vaccine conspiracies, anti-masking, denialism, etc), and now we’re seeing an anti-science (and anti-reality) administration celebrate the gutting of our scientific prestige in the name of nostalgia for -isms. You act like this is something specific to one party when in fact it is representative of both parties, aka the Uniparty. All agents of capital have blood on their hands from the pandemic they fumbled and that has not yet ended: How the press manufactured consent for never-ending COVID reinfections https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-consent https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-co... Also, this is nothing specific to the US, though considering how many countries followed the lead of the CDC etc, one could reasonably argue the US is most to blame. But don't let that distract you from the fact that ultimately, global capital runs the show: Modern Capitalism Is Weirder Than You Think It also no longer works as advertised. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-h... (https://archive.ph/Ysw6k https://archive.ph/Ysw6k)
  - nradov 1y ago
    What a silly article with zero connection to scientific reality. There's nothing special about SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19). It's just another coronavirus much like the others that were already endemic. Never-ending reinfections were always inevitable when the first carrier left Wuhan, so "manufactured consent" or lack thereof are utterly irrelevant.
    - swed420 1y ago
      > What a silly article with zero connection to scientific reality. What a silly comment with zero connection to scientific reality. > Never-ending reinfections were always inevitable when the first carrier left Wuhan, so "manufactured consent" or lack thereof are utterly irrelevant. False. When properly and consistently worn, N95 respirators effectively stop COVID transmission. > It's just another coronavirus much like the others that were already endemic. It very clearly bucks previous trends, considering: 38% had self-reported long covid after 3 infections https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condition/ https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condit... 40% of the undergrad students reported brain fog due to COVID-19. 37% of the undergraduates exhibited impaired cognition up to 17 months post-infection. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159124007311?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912... https://oem.bmj.com/content/81/9/471 https://oem.bmj.com/content/81/9/471 33.6% of healthcare workers have symptoms meeting NICE criteria for long Covid. Only 7.6% have a formal diagnosis 20% of kids (ages 6-11) and 14% of teens have for long covid https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2822770 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2822770 30% have long covid https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065(24)00212-8/fulltext#au5 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6... 36% had long covid https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.01.24319384v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.01.24319384v... There's a load of studies that something like 90% of people with long covid don't get better years later. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00143-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29513-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29513-z https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00760-9/fulltext https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00760-9/ful... https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-074425 https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-074425 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(22)00260-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... https://www.nature.com/articles/s43856-024-00657-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s43856-024-00657-x https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(24)00394-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(25)00036-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-19... A common type of long covid is myalgic encephalomyelitis which is generally lifelong: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15699087/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15699087/ Here's two reviews papers about long covid which both say that common long covid subtypes are generally lifelong https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03173-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03173-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2
CommenterPerson 1y ago
Well worth a read to the rest of us .. (who keep going on and on about, if LLMs are the best thing since sliced bread or not).
- fuzzfactor 1y ago
  Well written and it's more than just the author's point of view being emphasized. It's normal for someone who's taken a position fully in favor of "science" to show their bias against what they see as the most eminent threats. There's no attempt here to hide the bias, in fact there's a fairly respectable attempt to explain the reason for the bias which you don't always get. Any anti-science crusaders from their point of view are not as sensible when they don't explain their bias either. Nobody expects it to be zero bias so when an opinionated person owns up to it this is just a little something that could lead back to better understanding. You want to be able to compromise on the roots of disagreement, rather than mindless name-calling if you want to recover one of the most sorely-missed elements of greatness. Naturally what brought this to mind is that the whole time almost nobody is paying any attention to the little detail where sliced bread has never been the best bread anyway :\
rachofsunshine 1y ago
Sometimes simple points are important, especially when those simple points are not generally agreed-upon. A proposed law declaring pi to be 3.00 would indeed be bad, and the simplicity of its badness would not make it any less bad.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Yeah...but what's the actual goal? If it's informing and convincing people who don't agree - I'm thinking that 99.9% of those folks aren't going to read any longish article in The Atlantic. And the 0.1% who might read will quickly be repelled if not angered by the article's tone. Similar for folks who do agree, then try to convince others with arguments and tones from the article. If a preacher has no interest in actually spreading the Good News - preaching to the choir can be quite comfortable. And he's free to take nasty digs at unbelievers while doing that.
  - throw0101d 1y ago
    > If a preacher has no interest in actually spreading the Good News - preaching to the choir can be quite comfortable. Sometimes even the choir needs a morale boost and a reminder as to why they're in the choir.

stego-tech 1y ago

That’s The Atlantic for you: raising a decent point in the headline, and then squandering the article whining like a toddler who didn’t get candy at the checkout lane. Taking the headline at face value, though, they’re not wrong at all, and this is something I’ve tried warning folks over myself for several years now. Our collective response to COVID was truly the alarm bells going off (vaccine conspiracies, anti-masking, denialism, etc), and now we’re seeing an anti-science (and anti-reality) administration celebrate the gutting of our scientific prestige in the name of nostalgia for -isms. While authors and commentators are handwringing over whether the US is “cooked” scientifically, those in the know or who are observant already know the answer is an emphatic YES. With the present attack on science, we’ve effectively outsourced one of the last remaining industries that kept us afloat as an empire. We have no real manufacturing (at least of anything others want), and what we do make is of decreasing quality so that shareholders can get paid (e.g. Boeing jets, American cars, and now even SIG handguns - if we can’t make decent planes, cars, and guns, then what do we even export besides raw materials/agriculture?). Without science driving R&D, we won’t even have the patents on innovative new medicines, technologies, or energy sources that we can export abroad. So yeah. We’re done as an Empire. This isn’t something we can roll back next election, and I don’t think the current crop of Americans have felt enough pain to suddenly grow cooperative and engage in self-sacrifice for the greater good.

margalabargala 1y ago
I agree with most of what you wrote, but: > American cars, and now even SIG handguns SIG is a German/Swiss company, not American. American cars vary in quality wildly by manufacturer, with Stellantis being the worst offender of what you describe but Chevrolet being the least bad (at the moment).
- Zigurd 1y ago
  Both Sig Sauer and Glock have US manufacturing. Currently, it appears that all Sig guns are made in the US and Sig is the biggest exporter of guns. American gun culture and the gun business in America is a huge outlier internationally. I would find it hard to think of why that would be healthy.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    This misses the point. The person I replied to was saying that American manufacturing was trending towards lower quality because of a shift in culture in American companies that sacrificed quality for profit. The fact that Sig guns are manufactured in the US, or the fact that they are guns as opposed to some other product, are not actually relevant to that. Since Sig is a German company, then one would expect that they would not be subject to the same drop in quality OP described. Since they are, that indicates that the problem described is present in Europe as well and is not a uniquely American phenomenon.
foobarian 1y ago
The only reason we even had good science is the arms race. When there was a threat of someone else getting nukes or radar then the anti-science cohorts were silenced with a quickness, and large percentages of GDP were thrown at R&D, including poaching scientists from abroad, to get there first. With nothing like that looming right now, there is no check and balance on the anti-science regiment, and so sliding downhill we go. Sadly I don't see this changing either, unless theoretical physicists turn up the basis for some new weapon.
- nradov 1y ago
  We've been in another arms race with China since at least 2017 (and perhaps another space race as well).
stocksinsmocks 1y ago
I agree that COVID response was the canary in the coal mine for exactly the opposite reason you do. Funny how it works both ways. Nobody is happy, and we’re living at the end of an age of decency staring into the abyss of mass-psychosis and catastrophe as we somehow always have been. Maybe it’s OK. I don’t have to think about predators, which bugs are edible, and I have an entertainment rectangle in my pocket that I can use to tease people on the internet.
swed420 1y ago
> Our collective response to COVID was truly the alarm bells going off (vaccine conspiracies, anti-masking, denialism, etc), and now we’re seeing an anti-science (and anti-reality) administration celebrate the gutting of our scientific prestige in the name of nostalgia for -isms. You act like this is something specific to one party when in fact it is representative of both parties, aka the Uniparty. All agents of capital have blood on their hands from the pandemic they fumbled and that has not yet ended: How the press manufactured consent for never-ending COVID reinfections https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-consent https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-co... Also, this is nothing specific to the US, though considering how many countries followed the lead of the CDC etc, one could reasonably argue the US is most to blame. But don't let that distract you from the fact that ultimately, global capital runs the show: Modern Capitalism Is Weirder Than You Think It also no longer works as advertised. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-have-upended-how-modern-capitalism-works.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/03/how-asset-managers-h... (https://archive.ph/Ysw6k https://archive.ph/Ysw6k)
- nradov 1y ago
  What a silly article with zero connection to scientific reality. There's nothing special about SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19). It's just another coronavirus much like the others that were already endemic. Never-ending reinfections were always inevitable when the first carrier left Wuhan, so "manufactured consent" or lack thereof are utterly irrelevant.
  - swed420 1y ago
    > What a silly article with zero connection to scientific reality. What a silly comment with zero connection to scientific reality. > Never-ending reinfections were always inevitable when the first carrier left Wuhan, so "manufactured consent" or lack thereof are utterly irrelevant. False. When properly and consistently worn, N95 respirators effectively stop COVID transmission. > It's just another coronavirus much like the others that were already endemic. It very clearly bucks previous trends, considering: 38% had self-reported long covid after 3 infections https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condition/ https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/post-covid-condit... 40% of the undergrad students reported brain fog due to COVID-19. 37% of the undergraduates exhibited impaired cognition up to 17 months post-infection. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159124007311?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912... https://oem.bmj.com/content/81/9/471 https://oem.bmj.com/content/81/9/471 33.6% of healthcare workers have symptoms meeting NICE criteria for long Covid. Only 7.6% have a formal diagnosis 20% of kids (ages 6-11) and 14% of teens have for long covid https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2822770 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2822770 30% have long covid https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065(24)00212-8/fulltext#au5 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6... 36% had long covid https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.01.24319384v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.01.24319384v... There's a load of studies that something like 90% of people with long covid don't get better years later. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00143-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29513-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29513-z https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00760-9/fulltext https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(23)00760-9/ful... https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-074425 https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-074425 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(22)00260-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... https://www.nature.com/articles/s43856-024-00657-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s43856-024-00657-x https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(24)00394-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(25)00036-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-19... A common type of long covid is myalgic encephalomyelitis which is generally lifelong: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15699087/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15699087/ Here's two reviews papers about long covid which both say that common long covid subtypes are generally lifelong https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03173-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03173-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2

CommenterPerson 1y ago

Well worth a read to the rest of us .. (who keep going on and on about, if LLMs are the best thing since sliced bread or not).

fuzzfactor 1y ago
Well written and it's more than just the author's point of view being emphasized. It's normal for someone who's taken a position fully in favor of "science" to show their bias against what they see as the most eminent threats. There's no attempt here to hide the bias, in fact there's a fairly respectable attempt to explain the reason for the bias which you don't always get. Any anti-science crusaders from their point of view are not as sensible when they don't explain their bias either. Nobody expects it to be zero bias so when an opinionated person owns up to it this is just a little something that could lead back to better understanding. You want to be able to compromise on the roots of disagreement, rather than mindless name-calling if you want to recover one of the most sorely-missed elements of greatness. Naturally what brought this to mind is that the whole time almost nobody is paying any attention to the little detail where sliced bread has never been the best bread anyway :\

rachofsunshine 1y ago

Sometimes simple points are important, especially when those simple points are not generally agreed-upon. A proposed law declaring pi to be 3.00 would indeed be bad, and the simplicity of its badness would not make it any less bad.

bell-cot 1y ago
Yeah...but what's the actual goal? If it's informing and convincing people who don't agree - I'm thinking that 99.9% of those folks aren't going to read any longish article in The Atlantic. And the 0.1% who might read will quickly be repelled if not angered by the article's tone. Similar for folks who do agree, then try to convince others with arguments and tones from the article. If a preacher has no interest in actually spreading the Good News - preaching to the choir can be quite comfortable. And he's free to take nasty digs at unbelievers while doing that.
- throw0101d 1y ago
  > If a preacher has no interest in actually spreading the Good News - preaching to the choir can be quite comfortable. Sometimes even the choir needs a morale boost and a reminder as to why they're in the choir.