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Leaked record of a meeting on 11/07/2025: Original: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/internes-protokoll-eu-juristen-kritisieren-daenischen-vorschlag-zur-chatkontr

Leaked record of a meeting on 11/07/2025: Original: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/internes-protokoll-eu-juristen-kritisieren-daenischen-vorschlag-zur-chatkontrolle/ https://netzpolitik.org/2025/internes-protokoll-eu-juristen-... Translated to English: https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2025/internes-protokoll-eu-juristen-kritisieren-daenischen-vorschlag-zur-chatkontrolle/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2025/internes-protoko...

ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
I am Danish and I fucking hate my government for this. Nationally, the minister of justice Peter Hummelgaard is also pushing for a law which gives the police intelligence agency (PET) the right to basically do mass surveillance of everyone without prior suspicion of any criminal activity. If passed, they will be allowed to build a database of everyone which correlates social media activity with health care data and any other data collected via surveillance. This will be a machine for automatically generating suspects. Peter Hummelgaard basically says yes to every new tool that the police asks for. He also is a staunch advocate of increasing punishment for every type of crime that happens to catch his attention, even in a time where our prison system is in shambles and has way too many inmates. A true authoritarian.
- anthk 1y ago
  Public Unix server will get a Reissanance. Tons of folks will learn to live under small Nix account to chat privately under remote Tox accounts or over I2PD. This will only boost up populace's knowledge. Kinda like in Spain tons of people learnt to either burn cards with microcontrollers in order to pirate TV top boxes or run Nagra and satellite decoders with keys dumped fron sketchy sites to be read with Kaffeine. And, often, it was more fun to decode the signal than to watch the actual TV schedule.
  - loa_in_ 1y ago
    These things won't magically boost populace's knowledge. People are born every day and they don't know anything. Each year the burden of things you need to know to be an adult increases. The populationbon general will not get hands on with something optional.
    - anthk 1y ago
      Give the Southern Europeans ways to watch 'free soccer' for people over 40's and you'll find tons of people would have been good technicians if they had some motivation to build complex tools.
  - vaylian 1y ago
    > Public Unix server will get a Reissanance. That server is going to get a detection order and then the operators have to spy against their own users. This is in the chat control bill.
- delusional 1y ago
  > This will be a machine for automatically generating suspects. According to proponents, this is untrue. The intent of that database is that looking into it will still require a warrent, and will thusly require the suspect to already have been identified. I'm no expert, but that sounds reasonably similar to how we treat other investigative means.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    How do you prevent a misuse or switching to "let's just start looking into this without warrant until this popular issue(i.e. immigrants, USA, Russia, religios tensions, ethnic tensions) is solved" when the next political crisis hits?
    - delusional 1y ago
      You don't. Democracy has to be able to make those decisions to be legitimate.
  - rockskon 1y ago
    There is no reason to believe it wouldn't eventually be used to generate leads as opposed to needing a warrant to sift through.
    - delusional 1y ago
      Again, I'm no expert, but I do believe the law would be what would stop you. It could be poorly written, but then we should just rewrite it.
      - shakna 1y ago
        Police, in many countries, have already been found to violate the laws protecting surveillance systems that already exist. If a warrant doesn't stop them today, why do you think it will tomorrow?
        1y ago
- mrtksn 1y ago
  What is the motivation behind this? Do you have some issue that in Denmark its deemed solvable only through that? Can you provide some context maybe? Is it like cultural thing?
  - continuational 1y ago
    > Do you have some issue that in Denmark its deemed solvable only through that? No. On the contrary, our crime rates are some of the lowest in the world.
- zo1 1y ago
  I think that's a great idea. I for one want to enable our governments to track down criminals and punish them for it. If they're not doing everything they can do so in this technological and digital age, then they are breaking their part of that pesky "social contract" I am being upheld to. And to people like you that oppose this and propose even more authoritarian laws that prevent me as a citizen from protecting myself: You don't speak for all of us.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    What do you plan to do when definitions of crime start getting fuzzy? Crime is not just petty crimes where it's a clear cut to tell if someone did something bad in definitive terms. Other crime types exist that are crime only within a structure. The crime of sharing copyrighted files is a crime within a framework of intellectual rights but then training AI on the same files and and producing alternative files bypassing the IP is not a crime. Then you get into political crimes, i.e. it can be a crime to deny the Armenian genocide, denying the Jewish genicide and protesting against the extermination of the Palestinians at this very moment. It can be crime to hide from the US embassy that you are not completely in support of extermination of Gaza people. Your government might cut a deal to save Greenland from US invasion that makes certain things a crime that the current US administration doesn't like. This all can change as politics evolves. Do you intend to support whatever the current position the current government has?
    - mystraline 1y ago
      Crime has ALWAYS been political in nature. I steal $100 from the cash register. Cameras are pulled, and I'm arrested and charged criminally. Company edits timecards and steals $100 from me. Its instead a civil matter, and maybe I might get paid back. Then again, probably not. Person shoots and kills a home invader. Murder trial ensues, and they spend piles of money to defend themselves. Cops shoot and kill person (likely black). They get away with it with 2 week suspended-with-pay because 'I thought I saw a weapon'. Insider stock trading is illegal, unless you're congress. Then completely legal. Highway patrols (read: state sanctioned gangs) confiscate cash for no reason. You have to sue the cash and prove good intent. You usually lose. Illegal immigration: ICE goes to places including workplaces and arrests (in various legal issues) illegal immigrants for illegally holding a job. None of the managers or owners are ever charged with immigration fraud, identity theft, or similar laws. There are 2 types of laws in our system: for those in power, and for those who don't have power.
- isaacremuant 1y ago
  Funnily enough. Those in power will commit crimes and get away with it because the same police won't point their surveillance to their bosses or influential people, because it would negatively affect their careers. Judges will be lenient and prosecutors find ways to give them, if at all community service and an inconsequential fine for the gravest of crimes. But hey, we absolutely need 1984 like surveillance. A cam in every home, if it's up to these schmucks.
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    It is pretty damning, that this lower sentencing for the rich or powerful happens over and over again all around the world. Usually one would expect judges to do their job, but it seems at a certain level many of them lose their ability to make everyone equal before the law. Maybe what we need are machines to calculate sentences. I am intentionally not saying AI. I mean stupid simple machines, where you input raw facts and each wrongdoing has a coefficient assigned to it, that modifies the sentence. Someone embezzled so and so much money? OK money times factor. Someone didn't reveal their side income as a politician? OK plus coefficient so and so. Just really dumb machines or programs that add up and their result is the sentence, period. No wriggling, no bs, no nothing. But I guess that would just move the problem to "Who inputs the crimes into the machines?" and then they would cheat their way out of trouble there. It's all so maddening.

ulrikrasmussen 1y ago

I am Danish and I fucking hate my government for this. Nationally, the minister of justice Peter Hummelgaard is also pushing for a law which gives the police intelligence agency (PET) the right to basically do mass surveillance of everyone without prior suspicion of any criminal activity. If passed, they will be allowed to build a database of everyone which correlates social media activity with health care data and any other data collected via surveillance. This will be a machine for automatically generating suspects. Peter Hummelgaard basically says yes to every new tool that the police asks for. He also is a staunch advocate of increasing punishment for every type of crime that happens to catch his attention, even in a time where our prison system is in shambles and has way too many inmates. A true authoritarian.

anthk 1y ago
Public Unix server will get a Reissanance. Tons of folks will learn to live under small Nix account to chat privately under remote Tox accounts or over I2PD. This will only boost up populace's knowledge. Kinda like in Spain tons of people learnt to either burn cards with microcontrollers in order to pirate TV top boxes or run Nagra and satellite decoders with keys dumped fron sketchy sites to be read with Kaffeine. And, often, it was more fun to decode the signal than to watch the actual TV schedule.
- loa_in_ 1y ago
  These things won't magically boost populace's knowledge. People are born every day and they don't know anything. Each year the burden of things you need to know to be an adult increases. The populationbon general will not get hands on with something optional.
  - anthk 1y ago
    Give the Southern Europeans ways to watch 'free soccer' for people over 40's and you'll find tons of people would have been good technicians if they had some motivation to build complex tools.
- vaylian 1y ago
  > Public Unix server will get a Reissanance. That server is going to get a detection order and then the operators have to spy against their own users. This is in the chat control bill.
delusional 1y ago
> This will be a machine for automatically generating suspects. According to proponents, this is untrue. The intent of that database is that looking into it will still require a warrent, and will thusly require the suspect to already have been identified. I'm no expert, but that sounds reasonably similar to how we treat other investigative means.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  How do you prevent a misuse or switching to "let's just start looking into this without warrant until this popular issue(i.e. immigrants, USA, Russia, religios tensions, ethnic tensions) is solved" when the next political crisis hits?
  - delusional 1y ago
    You don't. Democracy has to be able to make those decisions to be legitimate.
- rockskon 1y ago
  There is no reason to believe it wouldn't eventually be used to generate leads as opposed to needing a warrant to sift through.
  - delusional 1y ago
    Again, I'm no expert, but I do believe the law would be what would stop you. It could be poorly written, but then we should just rewrite it.
    - shakna 1y ago
      Police, in many countries, have already been found to violate the laws protecting surveillance systems that already exist. If a warrant doesn't stop them today, why do you think it will tomorrow?
      - 1y ago
mrtksn 1y ago
What is the motivation behind this? Do you have some issue that in Denmark its deemed solvable only through that? Can you provide some context maybe? Is it like cultural thing?
- continuational 1y ago
  > Do you have some issue that in Denmark its deemed solvable only through that? No. On the contrary, our crime rates are some of the lowest in the world.
zo1 1y ago
I think that's a great idea. I for one want to enable our governments to track down criminals and punish them for it. If they're not doing everything they can do so in this technological and digital age, then they are breaking their part of that pesky "social contract" I am being upheld to. And to people like you that oppose this and propose even more authoritarian laws that prevent me as a citizen from protecting myself: You don't speak for all of us.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  What do you plan to do when definitions of crime start getting fuzzy? Crime is not just petty crimes where it's a clear cut to tell if someone did something bad in definitive terms. Other crime types exist that are crime only within a structure. The crime of sharing copyrighted files is a crime within a framework of intellectual rights but then training AI on the same files and and producing alternative files bypassing the IP is not a crime. Then you get into political crimes, i.e. it can be a crime to deny the Armenian genocide, denying the Jewish genicide and protesting against the extermination of the Palestinians at this very moment. It can be crime to hide from the US embassy that you are not completely in support of extermination of Gaza people. Your government might cut a deal to save Greenland from US invasion that makes certain things a crime that the current US administration doesn't like. This all can change as politics evolves. Do you intend to support whatever the current position the current government has?
  - mystraline 1y ago
    Crime has ALWAYS been political in nature. I steal $100 from the cash register. Cameras are pulled, and I'm arrested and charged criminally. Company edits timecards and steals $100 from me. Its instead a civil matter, and maybe I might get paid back. Then again, probably not. Person shoots and kills a home invader. Murder trial ensues, and they spend piles of money to defend themselves. Cops shoot and kill person (likely black). They get away with it with 2 week suspended-with-pay because 'I thought I saw a weapon'. Insider stock trading is illegal, unless you're congress. Then completely legal. Highway patrols (read: state sanctioned gangs) confiscate cash for no reason. You have to sue the cash and prove good intent. You usually lose. Illegal immigration: ICE goes to places including workplaces and arrests (in various legal issues) illegal immigrants for illegally holding a job. None of the managers or owners are ever charged with immigration fraud, identity theft, or similar laws. There are 2 types of laws in our system: for those in power, and for those who don't have power.
isaacremuant 1y ago
Funnily enough. Those in power will commit crimes and get away with it because the same police won't point their surveillance to their bosses or influential people, because it would negatively affect their careers. Judges will be lenient and prosecutors find ways to give them, if at all community service and an inconsequential fine for the gravest of crimes. But hey, we absolutely need 1984 like surveillance. A cam in every home, if it's up to these schmucks.
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  It is pretty damning, that this lower sentencing for the rich or powerful happens over and over again all around the world. Usually one would expect judges to do their job, but it seems at a certain level many of them lose their ability to make everyone equal before the law. Maybe what we need are machines to calculate sentences. I am intentionally not saying AI. I mean stupid simple machines, where you input raw facts and each wrongdoing has a coefficient assigned to it, that modifies the sentence. Someone embezzled so and so much money? OK money times factor. Someone didn't reveal their side income as a politician? OK plus coefficient so and so. Just really dumb machines or programs that add up and their result is the sentence, period. No wriggling, no bs, no nothing. But I guess that would just move the problem to "Who inputs the crimes into the machines?" and then they would cheat their way out of trouble there. It's all so maddening.