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I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European... If all you have to do is push a button/lever and it goes then it's basically another form of motorcycle. However, you may be allowed to operate low-powered motorcycles with 'just' a car license: > B: In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence So e-bikes/scooters don't necessarily need special licensing.

Dylan16807 1y ago
What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?
- pizzalife 1y ago
  > If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern? Because it would go too fast.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?
    - pizzalife 1y ago
      The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        A motorcycle accelerating at full speed without a rider is very dangerous no matter how many horsepower. I don't think that should be the test method. Also twice the power doesn't give you twice the acceleration as you pick up speed. Each mph takes more energy than the last.
      - BobaFloutist 1y ago
        On the other hand, getting hit by a 20kg bike would hurt a lot less than a 40kg bike at the same speed.
- throw0101c 1y ago
  The latest generation of RAV4 has power of 176 kW (236 hp; 239 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4#Sixth_generation_(XA60;_2025) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4#Sixth_generation_(... A fairly recent iteration of BMW S1000RR motorcycle has 152 kW (204 hp; 207 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S1000RR#2019_(K_67) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S1000RR#2019_(K_67) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_motorcycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_mot... One can set lap records, the other cannot. Power-to-weight can determine performance a lot (it's why high-end sports cars often use carbon fibre).
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    I don't think you can compare a car and a motorcycle that easily. Especially at high speeds where air resistance is so important.
    - throw0101c 1y ago
      The current-gen Miata is 135 kW (181 hp; 184 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) It's about ~third of the weight of the RAV4. Which one do you think accelerates from zero faster (not even reaching "high speeds")?
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        Now adjust things so the driver weighs more than the car and we'll be close to motorcycle territory. And even here it's like 6 versus 8 seconds for 0 to 60.
        throw0101c 1y ago
        So the Miata gets there faster even with a >20% power disadvantage. I think that shows why power-weight is important.
        1y ago
type0 1y ago
> rated power of less than or equal to 250 W these power ratings are usually incorrect and depending on construction of e-bike might not be enough for good acceleration uphill
- throw0101c 1y ago
  I'm happy to quibble about numbers as long as the general principles of (a) needing to peddle to be considered a "bicycle", and (b) being power-limited if you don't want to be considered a 'real' motorcycle, are in there somewhere.
bsimpson 1y ago
The other part that's missing in the US is infrastructure. It's taken a generation for acoustic bike lanes to be standard infrastructure in the US, and they've mostly been an exhaust valve. I spent the 2010s bike commuting in SF, and even at rush hour you'd have at-most a dozen bikes waiting at a stoplight. In part because we still need to do so much to make urban cycling as safe as it is enjoyable, even in inner cities, cars outnumber bikes. Over the last few years, motorbikes have become desirable at a scale the US is unfamiliar with and unequipped to service. They're a cool toy for kids, a useful tool for commuters, and the lowest barrier to entry for deliveries. In the same way it's not safe to mix someone in the foam hat we call a bicycle helmet with multiton metal vehicle traffic, it's not safe for motorbike riders either. They have too much speed and inertia to mix comfortably with bicycle riders, but not enough protection to mix with cars and trucks. Worse, car drivers seem to have forgotten how to drive. Red light running is no longer rare, and more drivers seem to be watching the phone in their laps than the traffic ahead. Filtering and lane splitting doesn't solve the big-car-vs-tiny-motorbike problem, but it at least helps. Unfortunately it's mostly a California thing. A few states are experimenting with reduced flavors of it, but safety (in the form of filtering/splitting) is still at odds with the law in most states. There's a principle in Dutch traffic engineering that each grade of mass/vulnerability needs its own right of way: Pedestrians have crosswalks. Bicycles have cycletracks. Cars have roads. Trains have rails. Each one is vulnerable to all the bigger ones and a threat to all the smaller ones, so they each have a solution. Our cities need to bring that approach to motorbikes. Unfortunately, this goes against the grain of race/class/tradition. The people in power tend to move through the world in cars, so accommodating other modes is an unfamiliar nuisance to them. (See also: the decades it took for bike lanes to become standard.) NYPD has been actively harassing cyclists this year because the nepobaby chief of police's heiress mom is afraid of them. Delivery riders tend to be immigrants. They're willing to work hard jobs for low wages, and there's a black market of Uber Eats profiles that they can rent without work permits [1]. They can be intimidating - looking foreign and not speaking English. They learned to ride in places with less regimented road cultures than the US (places where motorbikes are expected to filter to the front of traffic). Being sandwiched between cars is both dangerous and slow - both counter to the instincts of someone who gets rewarded for completing a delivery quickly. Of course they break the law - filtering, riding on sidewalks, riding the wrong way… What cities need to do is give well behaved motorbikes a practical avenue. Maybe there's a motorbike lane next to the bike lane. Maybe filtering is legalized. There's plenty of room to find a solution here. Give them a safe and reasonable option, then ticket the people who continue to break the law. Instead, we're likely to be stuck with obsolete laws for a while. Immigrants speeding through traffic and riding on the sidewalk are not a sympathetic constituency. But until the law catches up to the technology and the culture, this is going to be a mess. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V9ypoULc0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V9ypoULc0I
tim333 1y ago
I ride an EU rule ebike. It's good on the whole but I think they could go to 500W or 750W and still keep the 15.5mph. It's quick on the flat but on any sort of hill it struggles and drops to more like 5 mph, or needs pedaling.
- Hamuko 1y ago
  I have a 1000 W e-bike in Europe (Finland). Like a 250 W one, it's road legal and restricted to 25 km/h. The only difference is that I'm required to have liability insurance on it, which is about 100 €/year.
ponector 1y ago
Those are good rules, but are loosely enforced. Usual Uber eats bike courier has one of that overpowered ebikea and are the worse users of bike lanes.

Dylan16807 1y ago

What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?

pizzalife 1y ago
> If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern? Because it would go too fast.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?
  - pizzalife 1y ago
    The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      A motorcycle accelerating at full speed without a rider is very dangerous no matter how many horsepower. I don't think that should be the test method. Also twice the power doesn't give you twice the acceleration as you pick up speed. Each mph takes more energy than the last.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      On the other hand, getting hit by a 20kg bike would hurt a lot less than a 40kg bike at the same speed.
throw0101c 1y ago
The latest generation of RAV4 has power of 176 kW (236 hp; 239 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4#Sixth_generation_(XA60;_2025) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4#Sixth_generation_(... A fairly recent iteration of BMW S1000RR motorcycle has 152 kW (204 hp; 207 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S1000RR#2019_(K_67) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S1000RR#2019_(K_67) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_motorcycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_mot... One can set lap records, the other cannot. Power-to-weight can determine performance a lot (it's why high-end sports cars often use carbon fibre).
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  I don't think you can compare a car and a motorcycle that easily. Especially at high speeds where air resistance is so important.
  - throw0101c 1y ago
    The current-gen Miata is 135 kW (181 hp; 184 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) It's about ~third of the weight of the RAV4. Which one do you think accelerates from zero faster (not even reaching "high speeds")?
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Now adjust things so the driver weighs more than the car and we'll be close to motorcycle territory. And even here it's like 6 versus 8 seconds for 0 to 60.
      - throw0101c 1y ago
        So the Miata gets there faster even with a >20% power disadvantage. I think that shows why power-weight is important.
        1y ago

type0 1y ago

> rated power of less than or equal to 250 W these power ratings are usually incorrect and depending on construction of e-bike might not be enough for good acceleration uphill

throw0101c 1y ago
I'm happy to quibble about numbers as long as the general principles of (a) needing to peddle to be considered a "bicycle", and (b) being power-limited if you don't want to be considered a 'real' motorcycle, are in there somewhere.

bsimpson 1y ago

The other part that's missing in the US is infrastructure. It's taken a generation for acoustic bike lanes to be standard infrastructure in the US, and they've mostly been an exhaust valve. I spent the 2010s bike commuting in SF, and even at rush hour you'd have at-most a dozen bikes waiting at a stoplight. In part because we still need to do so much to make urban cycling as safe as it is enjoyable, even in inner cities, cars outnumber bikes. Over the last few years, motorbikes have become desirable at a scale the US is unfamiliar with and unequipped to service. They're a cool toy for kids, a useful tool for commuters, and the lowest barrier to entry for deliveries. In the same way it's not safe to mix someone in the foam hat we call a bicycle helmet with multiton metal vehicle traffic, it's not safe for motorbike riders either. They have too much speed and inertia to mix comfortably with bicycle riders, but not enough protection to mix with cars and trucks. Worse, car drivers seem to have forgotten how to drive. Red light running is no longer rare, and more drivers seem to be watching the phone in their laps than the traffic ahead. Filtering and lane splitting doesn't solve the big-car-vs-tiny-motorbike problem, but it at least helps. Unfortunately it's mostly a California thing. A few states are experimenting with reduced flavors of it, but safety (in the form of filtering/splitting) is still at odds with the law in most states. There's a principle in Dutch traffic engineering that each grade of mass/vulnerability needs its own right of way: Pedestrians have crosswalks. Bicycles have cycletracks. Cars have roads. Trains have rails. Each one is vulnerable to all the bigger ones and a threat to all the smaller ones, so they each have a solution. Our cities need to bring that approach to motorbikes. Unfortunately, this goes against the grain of race/class/tradition. The people in power tend to move through the world in cars, so accommodating other modes is an unfamiliar nuisance to them. (See also: the decades it took for bike lanes to become standard.) NYPD has been actively harassing cyclists this year because the nepobaby chief of police's heiress mom is afraid of them. Delivery riders tend to be immigrants. They're willing to work hard jobs for low wages, and there's a black market of Uber Eats profiles that they can rent without work permits [1]. They can be intimidating - looking foreign and not speaking English. They learned to ride in places with less regimented road cultures than the US (places where motorbikes are expected to filter to the front of traffic). Being sandwiched between cars is both dangerous and slow - both counter to the instincts of someone who gets rewarded for completing a delivery quickly. Of course they break the law - filtering, riding on sidewalks, riding the wrong way… What cities need to do is give well behaved motorbikes a practical avenue. Maybe there's a motorbike lane next to the bike lane. Maybe filtering is legalized. There's plenty of room to find a solution here. Give them a safe and reasonable option, then ticket the people who continue to break the law. Instead, we're likely to be stuck with obsolete laws for a while. Immigrants speeding through traffic and riding on the sidewalk are not a sympathetic constituency. But until the law catches up to the technology and the culture, this is going to be a mess. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V9ypoULc0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V9ypoULc0I

tim333 1y ago

I ride an EU rule ebike. It's good on the whole but I think they could go to 500W or 750W and still keep the 15.5mph. It's quick on the flat but on any sort of hill it struggles and drops to more like 5 mph, or needs pedaling.

Hamuko 1y ago
I have a 1000 W e-bike in Europe (Finland). Like a 250 W one, it's road legal and restricted to 25 km/h. The only difference is that I'm required to have liability insurance on it, which is about 100 €/year.

ponector 1y ago

Those are good rules, but are loosely enforced. Usual Uber eats bike courier has one of that overpowered ebikea and are the worse users of bike lanes.