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If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a

by Spivak 1y ago

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16s.

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.
- RhysU 1y ago
  Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real damn fast by professionals. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how well-trained the person atop it is. Says Wikipedia: > The 2025 edition was the fastest Tour de France in history. Tadej Pogačar rode 3,298.6 km in 76h 00m 32s, thus realising an overall speed of 43.4 km/h or 27.0 mph.
  - zaphar 1y ago
    Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.
    - RhysU 1y ago
      So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.
      - zaphar 1y ago
        Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        RhysU 1y ago
        Agreed. However, that shark is jumped as soon as the classification criteria involve operator-dependent properties like maximum speed of a bicycle. It has no operator-agnostic answer.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        > Reckless endangerment So maybe we can enforce that part a little better. If I tried to drive a car on pedestrian path at even 10kmh I'd be chased by police helicopter and appear on national news.
    - namibj 1y ago
      Typical bicycle geometry is just tire limited in it's high speed cornering performance; a 4-wheel car with a center of mass relative to size anywhere near as high would just fall over before really hitting tire limits. Coasting down switch-backs at whatever speed the car traffic on the road feels like, and not giving any car incentive to overtake by matching the speeds.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    How fast can a normal person riding a normal-style bike with modified gears go across the salt flats? I feel like it's obvious that capability would be measured with a fixed level of user input on a fixed course/dynamo.
    - RhysU 1y ago
      2018 had one pro rider do 183 MPH per https://www.bikeradar.com/news/cycling-land-speed-record-smashed-on-bonneville-salt-flats https://www.bikeradar.com/news/cycling-land-speed-record-sma... I'd wager most weekend spandex warriors could break 100 MPH peak.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        When you're drafting a dragster so close you're partly inside it I'm going to go ahead and say that doesn't count for my question.
        RhysU 1y ago
        Certainly crazy circumstances. But, it's just a bicycle.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        It's a bicycle that doesn't have to deal with air resistance, which sidesteps much of my question.
  - vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
    I am not 100% sure but I think Pogacar goes a little faster than the average cyclist.
- Spivak 1y ago
  I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.
  - shkkmo 1y ago
    > I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. Try getting hit by them, you'll feel a pretty big difference. My Zero in a custom riding mode that limits its speed will do way more damage than any e-bike at the same speed.
Sayrus 1y ago
> I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license In France, you can drive without a license once you're 14 (you need the BSR but it's basically impossible to not get it). If I remember correctly the motor has to be a 50cm3 or equivalent and go under 45 (or 50?) km per hour. So effectively, if you put the right motor in a Harley, you can. The bikes discussed here have large motors but only a speed limiter which is very different.
quickthrowman 1y ago
> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  and - unless your jurisidiction has a scooter license category - you still need a regular drivers license.
ender341341 1y ago
> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? in the article they call it out that yes currently the max speed of the bike is what's defined under the law and they're tightening that down to also include motor power (so it's harder for people to buy an artificially speed limited bike and remove the limiter while avoiding the regulations that go with that).

by Spivak 1y ago

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

RhysU 1y ago
Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real damn fast by professionals. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how well-trained the person atop it is. Says Wikipedia: > The 2025 edition was the fastest Tour de France in history. Tadej Pogačar rode 3,298.6 km in 76h 00m 32s, thus realising an overall speed of 43.4 km/h or 27.0 mph.
- zaphar 1y ago
  Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.
  - RhysU 1y ago
    So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.
    - zaphar 1y ago
      Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - RhysU 1y ago
        Agreed. However, that shark is jumped as soon as the classification criteria involve operator-dependent properties like maximum speed of a bicycle. It has no operator-agnostic answer.
      - dzhiurgis 1y ago
        > Reckless endangerment So maybe we can enforce that part a little better. If I tried to drive a car on pedestrian path at even 10kmh I'd be chased by police helicopter and appear on national news.
  - namibj 1y ago
    Typical bicycle geometry is just tire limited in it's high speed cornering performance; a 4-wheel car with a center of mass relative to size anywhere near as high would just fall over before really hitting tire limits. Coasting down switch-backs at whatever speed the car traffic on the road feels like, and not giving any car incentive to overtake by matching the speeds.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  How fast can a normal person riding a normal-style bike with modified gears go across the salt flats? I feel like it's obvious that capability would be measured with a fixed level of user input on a fixed course/dynamo.
  - RhysU 1y ago
    2018 had one pro rider do 183 MPH per https://www.bikeradar.com/news/cycling-land-speed-record-smashed-on-bonneville-salt-flats https://www.bikeradar.com/news/cycling-land-speed-record-sma... I'd wager most weekend spandex warriors could break 100 MPH peak.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      When you're drafting a dragster so close you're partly inside it I'm going to go ahead and say that doesn't count for my question.
      - RhysU 1y ago
        Certainly crazy circumstances. But, it's just a bicycle.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        It's a bicycle that doesn't have to deal with air resistance, which sidesteps much of my question.
- vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
  I am not 100% sure but I think Pogacar goes a little faster than the average cyclist.
Spivak 1y ago
I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.
- shkkmo 1y ago
  > I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. Try getting hit by them, you'll feel a pretty big difference. My Zero in a custom riding mode that limits its speed will do way more damage than any e-bike at the same speed.

Sayrus 1y ago

> I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license In France, you can drive without a license once you're 14 (you need the BSR but it's basically impossible to not get it). If I remember correctly the motor has to be a 50cm3 or equivalent and go under 45 (or 50?) km per hour. So effectively, if you put the right motor in a Harley, you can. The bikes discussed here have large motors but only a speed limiter which is very different.

quickthrowman 1y ago

> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!

skeeter2020 1y ago
and - unless your jurisidiction has a scooter license category - you still need a regular drivers license.

ender341341 1y ago

> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? in the article they call it out that yes currently the max speed of the bike is what's defined under the law and they're tightening that down to also include motor power (so it's harder for people to buy an artificially speed limited bike and remove the limiter while avoiding the regulations that go with that).