7 ms·

'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

38 points by harambae 1y ago

zaphar 1y ago
That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.
- Spivak 1y ago
  If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16s.
  - vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
    Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.
    - RhysU 1y ago
      Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real damn fast by professionals. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how well-trained the person atop it is. Says Wikipedia: > The 2025 edition was the fastest Tour de France in history. Tadej Pogačar rode 3,298.6 km in 76h 00m 32s, thus realising an overall speed of 43.4 km/h or 27.0 mph.
      - zaphar 1y ago
        Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.
        RhysU 1y ago
        So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.
        zaphar 1y ago
        Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 1y ago
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        RhysU 1y ago
        Agreed. However, that shark is jumped as soon as the classification criteria involve operator-dependent properties like maximum speed of a bicycle. It has no operator-agnostic answer.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        > Reckless endangerment So maybe we can enforce that part a little better. If I tried to drive a car on pedestrian path at even 10kmh I'd be chased by police helicopter and appear on national news.
    - Spivak 1y ago
      I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.
      - shkkmo 1y ago
        > I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. Try getting hit by them, you'll feel a pretty big difference. My Zero in a custom riding mode that limits its speed will do way more damage than any e-bike at the same speed.
  - Sayrus 1y ago
    > I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license In France, you can drive without a license once you're 14 (you need the BSR but it's basically impossible to not get it). If I remember correctly the motor has to be a 50cm3 or equivalent and go under 45 (or 50?) km per hour. So effectively, if you put the right motor in a Harley, you can. The bikes discussed here have large motors but only a speed limiter which is very different.
  - quickthrowman 1y ago
    > If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!
    - skeeter2020 1y ago
      and - unless your jurisidiction has a scooter license category - you still need a regular drivers license.
  - ender341341 1y ago
    > If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? in the article they call it out that yes currently the max speed of the bike is what's defined under the law and they're tightening that down to also include motor power (so it's harder for people to buy an artificially speed limited bike and remove the limiter while avoiding the regulations that go with that).
- rib3ye 1y ago
  Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle
    - toast0 1y ago
      Pedal assist can almost certainly be tuned to get you to 30 mph if the motor can do it. I've used a few e-bikes, and the nice ones have pedal assist that has good feel, but the less expensive ones have pedal assist that's a janky throttle with more steps. I understand the motivation for requiring pedal assist rather than a throttle, but the motor speed cutout is the important bit. If I can put it in easy gear and pedal to operate the throttle while the chain is freewheeling the whole time, the pedals are just a throttle I operate with my feet; I'm not actually providing any of the energy for locomotion.
      - namibj 1y ago
        The typical premium/brand-name e-bike in Germany AFAIK uses torque sensing u to electronically transform the apparent weight of the loaded vehicle (more acceleration for the same felt/pedaled force), which seems to benefit nuanced control.
    - senkora 1y ago
      I have an (unmodified) Super73. There is a mode selection between pedal assist and throttle. You can hit 28mph with only pedal assist.
  - 1y ago
potato3732842 1y ago
Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a race course or something like that. This is a self solving problem. It doesn't need a law. Nobody is going lightening fast on anything that resembles a bike except in the few situations where a) they can b) doing so is less sketchy than not (e.g. going faster than the bike "likes" is can be less sketchy than going too slow for traffic). The fact that there is a huge pent up demand for "totally not a moped" type stuff really goes to show you the degree to which not laughing these people out of town has already perverted the personal transportation market. Edit: The above are Philly speeds. Add 5-10mph for Miami or somewhere else wide, smooth and flat with great visibility. But the cars are going faster there too and the pedestrians are fewer and/or more removes so I don't think it actually matters.
- philipkglass 1y ago
  They may be more concerned about risks to pedestrians and people on slower bicycles rather than risks to the speeders themselves.
- droopyEyelids 1y ago
  The way I'm interpreting what you said, it feels like you're dismissing the state's role in protecting the health of citizens. Especially children, who are known to be deficient in their judgement and decision making. It's not reasonable to say "every parent should learn about the dangers of different types of electric vehicle through the injury of a child in their peer group"
- Sayrus 1y ago
  Let's face it, an e-bike that goes to 70 rarely looks like a bike. For instance: - https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx - https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr (no bicycle pedals) I was able to find some 60MPH e-bikes that looks somewhat like a very bulky bike but even then, it's still closer to a motorcycle with pedals.
droopyEyelids 1y ago
"Connecticut already uses the common three-class system that codifies legal e-bikes as up to 20 mph (32 km/h) and 750W (one horsepower) for Class 1 and 2, or up to 28 mph (45 km/h) for Class 3 e-bikes. But now the state is updating its e-bike laws, adding that any e-bike with over 750W of power will be considered a “motor-driven cycle” and require a driver’s license. Over 3,500W? That will be considered a motorcycle and require a motorcycle endorsement to legally ride, as well as registration and insurance like a motorcycle. " I love PEVs and this basically makes sense to me.
daft_pink 1y ago
When I wanted to purchase a Super 73 bike before, they advertised and claimed it was compliant with Class 1 and Class 2 eBike rules, because you could set it in a mode, where it would operate in this class, when bike laws in most states are pretty clear that for an ebike to qualify and still be subject to bicycle laws not motorcycle laws, the device must not go beyond a maximum speed. You cannot just set a toggle and have a setting of Class 1/Class 2/Unlimited and still be able to operate it on the sidewalk or in parks or in bike lanes or not have a license etc. Glad someone is finally calling them out on it.
throw0101c 1y ago
I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European... If all you have to do is push a button/lever and it goes then it's basically another form of motorcycle. However, you may be allowed to operate low-powered motorcycles with 'just' a car license: > B: In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence So e-bikes/scooters don't necessarily need special licensing.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?
  - pizzalife 1y ago
    > If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern? Because it would go too fast.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?
      - pizzalife 1y ago
        The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.
shkkmo 1y ago
> It’s not clear that such speeds are actually capable on stock parts from nearly any electric bicycle, and legal electric bikes are not capable of exceeding either 20 or 28 mph, depending on their classification, It's like the author did zero research. While you can't easily modify most bikes to hit 70mph, there is an entire market segment of "class 2" "ebikes" than can be trivially modified to reach speeds that significantly exceed what the law allows (and arguably what is safe on those hardware components.) Often this can be done in the software without any hardware modification. If it can't, there are usually simple modifications that can be made to achieve the same thing.
habosa 1y ago
I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but ... people are assholes. I see so many people ripping on those moped-style ebikes. Going 30mph+ in a crowded bike lane, riding the wrong way against traffic, riding on sidewalks, texting, etc. Yes people _could_ do all of those things on regular bikes but in my experience they mostly didn't. I would be in favor of a law limiting pedal assist to 20mph and below. You can go faster than that, but the motor won't help you. 30mph is where most bikes top out right now and in a city that's faster than most car traffic. Way too fast for anything that follows bicycle laws (use of the bike lane, rolling stops allowed at stop signs, etc).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 1y ago
  I sometimes sit in sidewalk seating at a restaurant in Cambridge near a small theater I have a subscription to. The (protected) bike lane in front is a pretty horrifying combination of conventional bikes, ebikes, things that I assume are high powered ebikes but look almost like motor scooters, escooters, pedestrians caught in the crosshairs, etc. And a ton of the vehicles just blowing through the lights at the next intersection because they're more or less bikes and that's pretty common behavior.
- californical 1y ago
  I don’t think that a sweeping speed limit ban is helpful. FWIW, I don’t own an e-bike and have only borrowed them from other people a few times. In the more rural, even suburban areas, it might be totally safe, even safer to go 25-30mph instead of 20, if you’re on a road with 35mph car traffic. I agree with you for major cities, I’ve had to deal with the antisocial people who rip through crowds.. but a sweeping ban like that will limit usefulness outside of cities. I’ve hit 30+mph on a regular bike with a strong wind at my back, and it felt fast. But not dangerous by any means - I was out on a rural country road. It’d be nice to get that “wind” from electricity, regardless of the weather, to greatly reduce the commute time between towns, without needing to drive a (more dangerous) car.
mPReDiToR 1y ago
Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Electric scooters are illegal in the UK, but police don't have time or inclination to stop their widespread usage on public roads, and you're safe to ride past them unless you're doing something stupid. So many things like this have people getting away with it that the laws are just ignored eventually. When one has an incident ... Well, the hand wringers are out in droves telling everyone they told us so. Underfunded and under resourced police can't cope with the workload, for a change.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  >Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Which in practice means that anyone who doesn't pass a vibe check can be stopped for a fishing expedition and the officer can say in the report "well, they appeared to be going faster, oops".
- olivermuty 1y ago
  Why not? We have a TON of ebikes i Norway and the cops regularly do checkpoints of suspected chippers in the main commute routes. They have a little threadmill thing similar to what chiptuners use when tuning car engines that measure torque, watt and top speed.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Paying cops to run a checkpoint and dyno test bikes?!! That seems like a huge waste of government resources unless the goal is to save money on other enforcement areas by instilling a message of "don't you dare goose step an inch out of line, we're watching". I suspect it's more about pandering to police supporting demographics and looking busy than it is about enforcing anything.
    - namibj 1y ago
      Might be tamed by asset (vehicle here) forfeiture provision in some of the stricter European countries for when you do worse than just minor speeding: get caught e.g. street racing and now the state auctions off your vehicle, without you seeing a cent.
extr 1y ago
I have a JackRabbit OG e-bike [0] (really technically an electric scooter, since it doesn't have pedals). I recently put an aftermarket controller on it to allow for speeds past 20mph, and to allow for higher current to the 350W motor (accepting the risk of increased wear and burn out). It's a ton of fun to ride, can get up to 30-35mph or so though I never take it that high (dangerous). I mostly just use the increased torque for hills. What's interesting to me though is when I lived in a city, there was zero enforcement of e-bike laws, classifications, etc. I never saw a cop glance my way. Of course, the only riders of e-bikes were adults, and people generally followed traffic laws. Now that I live in the suburbs, the only other riders of e-bikes are teens and it's a huge issue! I have to be careful exceeding my speed class, it's noticable how much power my apparently modest bike has. Cops have already stopped me once to ask more about the bike, and accepted my explanation that while it's powerful, it has a software governer to keep it within limits. The cop seemed to give me an easier time because of my age (in my 30s), and the fact that I'm an adult with a regular driver's license. I got the sense if they had caught a teen with the bike, they would have been ticketed and the bike impounded. [0] https://jackrabbit.bike/ https://jackrabbit.bike/
- ghaff 1y ago
  When I was discussing the issue with someone in a nearby city that is putting in additional protected bike lanes, she said that they asked about enforcement of high-speed ebike speeds in a meeting and the city official basically shrugged and said nope.
- ryandvm 1y ago
  Can confirm. Teenagers on e-bikes is easily the number one complaint on suburban Nextdoor right now. It's like catnip for boomers.
BizarroLand 1y ago
I bought a 2000 watt dual motor ebike for ~$700 online. It's internally governed to have a max speed of 35 mph, and while that is technically illegal and I could technically defeat that governor and go faster, actually going 35 on a bicycle, even on normal roads, is pretty stressful. That's a lot of force to be putting on some thin steel tubes. I feel like laws to require licensing and to limit where you can ride ebikes above a certain weight class will save a lot of stupid people like myself from gross injury or death. That being said, I hope they don't take them away, because they are a lot of fun in the right context. Being able to bike 25 miles and still have the oomph to power up the hills near my house is fantastic, and occasionally, in safe conditions, being able to move 35mph is fun and helpful.
foxyv 1y ago
I really wish that we could get better laws for registering and licensing on these "Illegal" electric bicycles similar to the moped licenses in most states. Aftermarket plating and laser E-VIMs etc... They are such a great alternative to driving a car.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
I have an e-scooter that goes 60 mph / 100 kph. (Kaabo Wolf King GT Pro) I also have one that goes about 45-50 mph / 72-80 kph. (Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11) The limiting factors really are a. cost and b. common sense. a. They're not cheap, being ~$2-4k and sometime take special shipping (freight) to arrive. And if you need repairs or service, the few major Kaabo dealers I've dealt with in the US are absolute amateur hour, fly-by-night trash. You're better off buying parts from AliExpress and repairing them yourself. b. These aren't items to give kids or any under about age 17-20, depending on self-control, responsibility, protective gear, and suitable areas for use. Having a nanny state impose costs, limits, and regulations impinges on personal freedom... as the US has done effectively forbidden better foreign EVs (that won't participate in US homologation because there's no money in it). Any mode of transportation without a VIN, number plate, driver's license, and insurance already isn't allowed on highways essentially everywhere.
CHB0403085482 1y ago
The vehicle of choice for uber drivers...eh... cyclists.
rasz 1y ago
People are breaking the law so we must ... change the law instead of enforcing current one.
M95D 1y ago
It's amazing how legislation is updated so quickly for tech updates used by citizens, but multiple decades later for tech updates used by corporations.

38 points by harambae 1y ago

zaphar 1y ago

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

Spivak 1y ago
If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16s.
- vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
  Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.
  - RhysU 1y ago
    Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real damn fast by professionals. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how well-trained the person atop it is. Says Wikipedia: > The 2025 edition was the fastest Tour de France in history. Tadej Pogačar rode 3,298.6 km in 76h 00m 32s, thus realising an overall speed of 43.4 km/h or 27.0 mph.
    - zaphar 1y ago
      Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.
      - RhysU 1y ago
        So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.
        zaphar 1y ago
        Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        RhysU 1y ago
        Agreed. However, that shark is jumped as soon as the classification criteria involve operator-dependent properties like maximum speed of a bicycle. It has no operator-agnostic answer.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        > Reckless endangerment So maybe we can enforce that part a little better. If I tried to drive a car on pedestrian path at even 10kmh I'd be chased by police helicopter and appear on national news.
  - Spivak 1y ago
    I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.
    - shkkmo 1y ago
      > I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. Try getting hit by them, you'll feel a pretty big difference. My Zero in a custom riding mode that limits its speed will do way more damage than any e-bike at the same speed.
- Sayrus 1y ago
  > I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license In France, you can drive without a license once you're 14 (you need the BSR but it's basically impossible to not get it). If I remember correctly the motor has to be a 50cm3 or equivalent and go under 45 (or 50?) km per hour. So effectively, if you put the right motor in a Harley, you can. The bikes discussed here have large motors but only a speed limiter which is very different.
- quickthrowman 1y ago
  > If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    and - unless your jurisidiction has a scooter license category - you still need a regular drivers license.
- ender341341 1y ago
  > If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? in the article they call it out that yes currently the max speed of the bike is what's defined under the law and they're tightening that down to also include motor power (so it's harder for people to buy an artificially speed limited bike and remove the limiter while avoiding the regulations that go with that).
rib3ye 1y ago
Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle
  - toast0 1y ago
    Pedal assist can almost certainly be tuned to get you to 30 mph if the motor can do it. I've used a few e-bikes, and the nice ones have pedal assist that has good feel, but the less expensive ones have pedal assist that's a janky throttle with more steps. I understand the motivation for requiring pedal assist rather than a throttle, but the motor speed cutout is the important bit. If I can put it in easy gear and pedal to operate the throttle while the chain is freewheeling the whole time, the pedals are just a throttle I operate with my feet; I'm not actually providing any of the energy for locomotion.
    - namibj 1y ago
      The typical premium/brand-name e-bike in Germany AFAIK uses torque sensing u to electronically transform the apparent weight of the loaded vehicle (more acceleration for the same felt/pedaled force), which seems to benefit nuanced control.
  - senkora 1y ago
    I have an (unmodified) Super73. There is a mode selection between pedal assist and throttle. You can hit 28mph with only pedal assist.
- 1y ago

potato3732842 1y ago

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a race course or something like that. This is a self solving problem. It doesn't need a law. Nobody is going lightening fast on anything that resembles a bike except in the few situations where a) they can b) doing so is less sketchy than not (e.g. going faster than the bike "likes" is can be less sketchy than going too slow for traffic). The fact that there is a huge pent up demand for "totally not a moped" type stuff really goes to show you the degree to which not laughing these people out of town has already perverted the personal transportation market. Edit: The above are Philly speeds. Add 5-10mph for Miami or somewhere else wide, smooth and flat with great visibility. But the cars are going faster there too and the pedestrians are fewer and/or more removes so I don't think it actually matters.

philipkglass 1y ago
They may be more concerned about risks to pedestrians and people on slower bicycles rather than risks to the speeders themselves.
droopyEyelids 1y ago
The way I'm interpreting what you said, it feels like you're dismissing the state's role in protecting the health of citizens. Especially children, who are known to be deficient in their judgement and decision making. It's not reasonable to say "every parent should learn about the dangers of different types of electric vehicle through the injury of a child in their peer group"
Sayrus 1y ago
Let's face it, an e-bike that goes to 70 rarely looks like a bike. For instance: - https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx - https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr (no bicycle pedals) I was able to find some 60MPH e-bikes that looks somewhat like a very bulky bike but even then, it's still closer to a motorcycle with pedals.

droopyEyelids 1y ago

"Connecticut already uses the common three-class system that codifies legal e-bikes as up to 20 mph (32 km/h) and 750W (one horsepower) for Class 1 and 2, or up to 28 mph (45 km/h) for Class 3 e-bikes. But now the state is updating its e-bike laws, adding that any e-bike with over 750W of power will be considered a “motor-driven cycle” and require a driver’s license. Over 3,500W? That will be considered a motorcycle and require a motorcycle endorsement to legally ride, as well as registration and insurance like a motorcycle. " I love PEVs and this basically makes sense to me.

daft_pink 1y ago

When I wanted to purchase a Super 73 bike before, they advertised and claimed it was compliant with Class 1 and Class 2 eBike rules, because you could set it in a mode, where it would operate in this class, when bike laws in most states are pretty clear that for an ebike to qualify and still be subject to bicycle laws not motorcycle laws, the device must not go beyond a maximum speed. You cannot just set a toggle and have a setting of Class 1/Class 2/Unlimited and still be able to operate it on the sidewalk or in parks or in bike lanes or not have a license etc. Glad someone is finally calling them out on it.

throw0101c 1y ago

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European... If all you have to do is push a button/lever and it goes then it's basically another form of motorcycle. However, you may be allowed to operate low-powered motorcycles with 'just' a car license: > B: In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence So e-bikes/scooters don't necessarily need special licensing.

Dylan16807 1y ago
What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?
- pizzalife 1y ago
  > If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern? Because it would go too fast.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?
    - pizzalife 1y ago
      The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.

shkkmo 1y ago

> It’s not clear that such speeds are actually capable on stock parts from nearly any electric bicycle, and legal electric bikes are not capable of exceeding either 20 or 28 mph, depending on their classification, It's like the author did zero research. While you can't easily modify most bikes to hit 70mph, there is an entire market segment of "class 2" "ebikes" than can be trivially modified to reach speeds that significantly exceed what the law allows (and arguably what is safe on those hardware components.) Often this can be done in the software without any hardware modification. If it can't, there are usually simple modifications that can be made to achieve the same thing.

habosa 1y ago

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but ... people are assholes. I see so many people ripping on those moped-style ebikes. Going 30mph+ in a crowded bike lane, riding the wrong way against traffic, riding on sidewalks, texting, etc. Yes people _could_ do all of those things on regular bikes but in my experience they mostly didn't. I would be in favor of a law limiting pedal assist to 20mph and below. You can go faster than that, but the motor won't help you. 30mph is where most bikes top out right now and in a city that's faster than most car traffic. Way too fast for anything that follows bicycle laws (use of the bike lane, rolling stops allowed at stop signs, etc).

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ghaff 1y ago
I sometimes sit in sidewalk seating at a restaurant in Cambridge near a small theater I have a subscription to. The (protected) bike lane in front is a pretty horrifying combination of conventional bikes, ebikes, things that I assume are high powered ebikes but look almost like motor scooters, escooters, pedestrians caught in the crosshairs, etc. And a ton of the vehicles just blowing through the lights at the next intersection because they're more or less bikes and that's pretty common behavior.
californical 1y ago
I don’t think that a sweeping speed limit ban is helpful. FWIW, I don’t own an e-bike and have only borrowed them from other people a few times. In the more rural, even suburban areas, it might be totally safe, even safer to go 25-30mph instead of 20, if you’re on a road with 35mph car traffic. I agree with you for major cities, I’ve had to deal with the antisocial people who rip through crowds.. but a sweeping ban like that will limit usefulness outside of cities. I’ve hit 30+mph on a regular bike with a strong wind at my back, and it felt fast. But not dangerous by any means - I was out on a rural country road. It’d be nice to get that “wind” from electricity, regardless of the weather, to greatly reduce the commute time between towns, without needing to drive a (more dangerous) car.

mPReDiToR 1y ago

Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Electric scooters are illegal in the UK, but police don't have time or inclination to stop their widespread usage on public roads, and you're safe to ride past them unless you're doing something stupid. So many things like this have people getting away with it that the laws are just ignored eventually. When one has an incident ... Well, the hand wringers are out in droves telling everyone they told us so. Underfunded and under resourced police can't cope with the workload, for a change.

potato3732842 1y ago
>Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Which in practice means that anyone who doesn't pass a vibe check can be stopped for a fishing expedition and the officer can say in the report "well, they appeared to be going faster, oops".
olivermuty 1y ago
Why not? We have a TON of ebikes i Norway and the cops regularly do checkpoints of suspected chippers in the main commute routes. They have a little threadmill thing similar to what chiptuners use when tuning car engines that measure torque, watt and top speed.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Paying cops to run a checkpoint and dyno test bikes?!! That seems like a huge waste of government resources unless the goal is to save money on other enforcement areas by instilling a message of "don't you dare goose step an inch out of line, we're watching". I suspect it's more about pandering to police supporting demographics and looking busy than it is about enforcing anything.
  - namibj 1y ago
    Might be tamed by asset (vehicle here) forfeiture provision in some of the stricter European countries for when you do worse than just minor speeding: get caught e.g. street racing and now the state auctions off your vehicle, without you seeing a cent.

extr 1y ago

I have a JackRabbit OG e-bike [0] (really technically an electric scooter, since it doesn't have pedals). I recently put an aftermarket controller on it to allow for speeds past 20mph, and to allow for higher current to the 350W motor (accepting the risk of increased wear and burn out). It's a ton of fun to ride, can get up to 30-35mph or so though I never take it that high (dangerous). I mostly just use the increased torque for hills. What's interesting to me though is when I lived in a city, there was zero enforcement of e-bike laws, classifications, etc. I never saw a cop glance my way. Of course, the only riders of e-bikes were adults, and people generally followed traffic laws. Now that I live in the suburbs, the only other riders of e-bikes are teens and it's a huge issue! I have to be careful exceeding my speed class, it's noticable how much power my apparently modest bike has. Cops have already stopped me once to ask more about the bike, and accepted my explanation that while it's powerful, it has a software governer to keep it within limits. The cop seemed to give me an easier time because of my age (in my 30s), and the fact that I'm an adult with a regular driver's license. I got the sense if they had caught a teen with the bike, they would have been ticketed and the bike impounded. [0] https://jackrabbit.bike/ https://jackrabbit.bike/

ghaff 1y ago
When I was discussing the issue with someone in a nearby city that is putting in additional protected bike lanes, she said that they asked about enforcement of high-speed ebike speeds in a meeting and the city official basically shrugged and said nope.
ryandvm 1y ago
Can confirm. Teenagers on e-bikes is easily the number one complaint on suburban Nextdoor right now. It's like catnip for boomers.

BizarroLand 1y ago

I bought a 2000 watt dual motor ebike for ~$700 online. It's internally governed to have a max speed of 35 mph, and while that is technically illegal and I could technically defeat that governor and go faster, actually going 35 on a bicycle, even on normal roads, is pretty stressful. That's a lot of force to be putting on some thin steel tubes. I feel like laws to require licensing and to limit where you can ride ebikes above a certain weight class will save a lot of stupid people like myself from gross injury or death. That being said, I hope they don't take them away, because they are a lot of fun in the right context. Being able to bike 25 miles and still have the oomph to power up the hills near my house is fantastic, and occasionally, in safe conditions, being able to move 35mph is fun and helpful.

foxyv 1y ago

I really wish that we could get better laws for registering and licensing on these "Illegal" electric bicycles similar to the moped licenses in most states. Aftermarket plating and laser E-VIMs etc... They are such a great alternative to driving a car.

burnt-resistor 1y ago

I have an e-scooter that goes 60 mph / 100 kph. (Kaabo Wolf King GT Pro) I also have one that goes about 45-50 mph / 72-80 kph. (Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11) The limiting factors really are a. cost and b. common sense. a. They're not cheap, being ~$2-4k and sometime take special shipping (freight) to arrive. And if you need repairs or service, the few major Kaabo dealers I've dealt with in the US are absolute amateur hour, fly-by-night trash. You're better off buying parts from AliExpress and repairing them yourself. b. These aren't items to give kids or any under about age 17-20, depending on self-control, responsibility, protective gear, and suitable areas for use. Having a nanny state impose costs, limits, and regulations impinges on personal freedom... as the US has done effectively forbidden better foreign EVs (that won't participate in US homologation because there's no money in it). Any mode of transportation without a VIN, number plate, driver's license, and insurance already isn't allowed on highways essentially everywhere.

CHB0403085482 1y ago

The vehicle of choice for uber drivers...eh... cyclists.

rasz 1y ago

People are breaking the law so we must ... change the law instead of enforcing current one.

M95D 1y ago

It's amazing how legislation is updated so quickly for tech updates used by citizens, but multiple decades later for tech updates used by corporations.