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My first thought is that the unilateral murder of nonessential agents is not unethical in this system. The Purge is herd-ethical. This is a typical problem wit

My first thought is that the unilateral murder of nonessential agents is not unethical in this system. The Purge is herd-ethical. This is a typical problem with utilitarianism and its variants. My second thought is that MAT is just the anorganic continuum from Fisher’s thesis, Gothic Flatlines.

herdethics 1y ago
Under Herd Ethics, morality is structurally grounded in the preservation of shared, non-excludable infrastructure that sustains agency. The key moral unit is not the individual, but the herd—defined as the smallest group whose collective infrastructure enables survival or advantage. While someone might argue that "nonessential agents" could be removed without ethical harm, this misunderstands the framework: All Agents Are Entangled: If an agent exists within or affects a shared infrastructure—even passively—they are part of the herd. Thus, their removal risks systemic depletion. Depletion Is Structural, Not Intent-Based: Even if the removal is framed as utilitarian, the ethical violation arises from depleting herd infrastructure (e.g. trust, labor contribution, memory, social fabric). The book makes clear that "depletion" includes not just resource drain but erosion of networked capacity. Purge Logic Violates Moral Precedence: The Herd Dependency Principle gives moral title to the infrastructure-sustaining herd, not to centralized agents making unilateral calculations. A "purge" violates decentralized stewardship and falsely presumes perfect insight into who is "nonessential." Utilitarianism ≠ Herd Ethics: Herd Ethics is not utilitarian. It does not optimize for total happiness or outcomes but for structural continuity of moral infrastructure. It is closer to a system-maintenance ethics—like ecological stewardship.
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  You asked for feedback; I didn’t sign up for a debate. If you want to make clarifications, edit your blog post. You shouldn’t assume readers have read your book before reading the blog post advertising and/or summarizing the book.
- salawat 1y ago
  >A "purge" violates decentralized stewardship and falsely presumes perfect insight into who is "nonessential." A test case then. What happens when a digital entity requires more resources (training power/cooling water) than the organics can consciably/sustainably provide? What if the problem requiring sacrifice of meta-stability must be solved regardless? You can assume that the training is to accommodate the solution of a problem the organics need solved to move forward, but you said your framework is intent invariant mind, so you're kinda also dedicating yourself to the possibility that this system can maintain stability in the face of a selfish/deceptive machine. How does it play out? To be quite frank, I don't think you can come up with a magical system of ethics that'll solve human/machine interaction satisfiably until we can figure out human<->human ethics/morals satisfiably. Adding in the additional mechanicals just makes the current problem of trust even more difficult to navigate, because neither empathy nor acknowledgement of kinship will be fundamentally accessible between much of the two populations, which from current events, (Russia/Ukraine, China/Taiwan, Israel Palestine, India/China/Pakistan, U.S. liberal/Conservative/MAGA) we can already demonstrably conclude that we have very hard and present problems with what comes down to essentially inability or unwillingness to empathize, or even more horrifically, empathy followed by subsequent rational extinction of the empathic response and embarking on the path of "other extermination to further our own ends" anyway.
  - herdethics 1y ago
    Great question, you're clearly a bright person, :). It is important to note, according to Herd Ethics digital agents and organic agents are not fundamentally separate. In Herd Ethics, all agents - human, machine, hybrid, corporations - fall under the same moral framework. If they rely on shared, non-excludable infrastructure (like power, cooling, language, ecological systems), they are part of The Herd. That’s not metaphorical - it’s structural. Now, in your scenario, the herd is running a resource deficit. This triggers the Herd Depletion Effect (HDE) - a signal that the current system is unsustainable and will lead to agent collapse if continued. That’s not a moral judgment about who’s good or bad - it’s a recognition that the system’s survival substrate is at risk. What happens next depends on how the herd responds. And yes, that includes difficult choices. That’s where The Principle of Least Depletion comes in: "Between two harm-inducing actions, choose the one that preserves more of the herd’s continuity, infrastructure, and future adaptive capacity." The goal of Herd Ethics is not utopia - it’s continuity. Survival first. Stability before ideology. So the system doesn’t promise that every agent survives - but it provides a grounded, agent-neutral way to navigate collapse risks. It answers the question: What preserves the herd that preserves the agents that preserve the herd? That’s the ethical stack. That’s the only equation that matters. How could I, or should I, better lay out Herd Ethics in papers like the one I posted? See, that's the issue - and I don't mean it to be. I have created an ethical framework, which took a book to lay-out, but I need an easy way to present to content with the assumption that one won't read the book (I know I wouldn't). Should I layout Herd Ethics, briefly, in every paper I write? I worry that will muddy the content. Thanks, again, for posting!
herdethics 1y ago
Thanks again for the comment, I genuinely appreciate the engagement. To my understanding, Gothic Flatlines reflects a more dystopian view of future agency, one rooted in pessimism and loss of subjectivity. In contrast, MAT is intentionally optimistic. It's not a critique but a structural tool designed to preserve and clarify agency, offering a practical way to understand and navigate the spectrum of agents that already surround us. Really - thanks for the comment!
herdethics 1y ago
Sorry about that! I was just trying to answer the question, not debate. Hmm ... that seems to be the difficult part. How to concisely share tons of information - as people, including myself, would have a bunch of questions. I can't assume people will read the book, etc. Thanks for pointing that out, I will be thinking of better ways to go about this.

herdethics 1y ago

Under Herd Ethics, morality is structurally grounded in the preservation of shared, non-excludable infrastructure that sustains agency. The key moral unit is not the individual, but the herd—defined as the smallest group whose collective infrastructure enables survival or advantage. While someone might argue that "nonessential agents" could be removed without ethical harm, this misunderstands the framework: All Agents Are Entangled: If an agent exists within or affects a shared infrastructure—even passively—they are part of the herd. Thus, their removal risks systemic depletion. Depletion Is Structural, Not Intent-Based: Even if the removal is framed as utilitarian, the ethical violation arises from depleting herd infrastructure (e.g. trust, labor contribution, memory, social fabric). The book makes clear that "depletion" includes not just resource drain but erosion of networked capacity. Purge Logic Violates Moral Precedence: The Herd Dependency Principle gives moral title to the infrastructure-sustaining herd, not to centralized agents making unilateral calculations. A "purge" violates decentralized stewardship and falsely presumes perfect insight into who is "nonessential." Utilitarianism ≠ Herd Ethics: Herd Ethics is not utilitarian. It does not optimize for total happiness or outcomes but for structural continuity of moral infrastructure. It is closer to a system-maintenance ethics—like ecological stewardship.

TimorousBestie 1y ago
You asked for feedback; I didn’t sign up for a debate. If you want to make clarifications, edit your blog post. You shouldn’t assume readers have read your book before reading the blog post advertising and/or summarizing the book.
salawat 1y ago
>A "purge" violates decentralized stewardship and falsely presumes perfect insight into who is "nonessential." A test case then. What happens when a digital entity requires more resources (training power/cooling water) than the organics can consciably/sustainably provide? What if the problem requiring sacrifice of meta-stability must be solved regardless? You can assume that the training is to accommodate the solution of a problem the organics need solved to move forward, but you said your framework is intent invariant mind, so you're kinda also dedicating yourself to the possibility that this system can maintain stability in the face of a selfish/deceptive machine. How does it play out? To be quite frank, I don't think you can come up with a magical system of ethics that'll solve human/machine interaction satisfiably until we can figure out human<->human ethics/morals satisfiably. Adding in the additional mechanicals just makes the current problem of trust even more difficult to navigate, because neither empathy nor acknowledgement of kinship will be fundamentally accessible between much of the two populations, which from current events, (Russia/Ukraine, China/Taiwan, Israel Palestine, India/China/Pakistan, U.S. liberal/Conservative/MAGA) we can already demonstrably conclude that we have very hard and present problems with what comes down to essentially inability or unwillingness to empathize, or even more horrifically, empathy followed by subsequent rational extinction of the empathic response and embarking on the path of "other extermination to further our own ends" anyway.
- herdethics 1y ago
  Great question, you're clearly a bright person, :). It is important to note, according to Herd Ethics digital agents and organic agents are not fundamentally separate. In Herd Ethics, all agents - human, machine, hybrid, corporations - fall under the same moral framework. If they rely on shared, non-excludable infrastructure (like power, cooling, language, ecological systems), they are part of The Herd. That’s not metaphorical - it’s structural. Now, in your scenario, the herd is running a resource deficit. This triggers the Herd Depletion Effect (HDE) - a signal that the current system is unsustainable and will lead to agent collapse if continued. That’s not a moral judgment about who’s good or bad - it’s a recognition that the system’s survival substrate is at risk. What happens next depends on how the herd responds. And yes, that includes difficult choices. That’s where The Principle of Least Depletion comes in: "Between two harm-inducing actions, choose the one that preserves more of the herd’s continuity, infrastructure, and future adaptive capacity." The goal of Herd Ethics is not utopia - it’s continuity. Survival first. Stability before ideology. So the system doesn’t promise that every agent survives - but it provides a grounded, agent-neutral way to navigate collapse risks. It answers the question: What preserves the herd that preserves the agents that preserve the herd? That’s the ethical stack. That’s the only equation that matters. How could I, or should I, better lay out Herd Ethics in papers like the one I posted? See, that's the issue - and I don't mean it to be. I have created an ethical framework, which took a book to lay-out, but I need an easy way to present to content with the assumption that one won't read the book (I know I wouldn't). Should I layout Herd Ethics, briefly, in every paper I write? I worry that will muddy the content. Thanks, again, for posting!

herdethics 1y ago

Thanks again for the comment, I genuinely appreciate the engagement. To my understanding, Gothic Flatlines reflects a more dystopian view of future agency, one rooted in pessimism and loss of subjectivity. In contrast, MAT is intentionally optimistic. It's not a critique but a structural tool designed to preserve and clarify agency, offering a practical way to understand and navigate the spectrum of agents that already surround us. Really - thanks for the comment!

herdethics 1y ago

Sorry about that! I was just trying to answer the question, not debate. Hmm ... that seems to be the difficult part. How to concisely share tons of information - as people, including myself, would have a bunch of questions. I can't assume people will read the book, etc. Thanks for pointing that out, I will be thinking of better ways to go about this.