5 ms·

>Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot ... and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to help this person. so what? It is o

by trhway 1y ago

>Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot ... and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to help this person. so what? It is on their dime, not yours. If i'm a 90 years old and wanna drag my existence out it is my choice as long as i'm paying for it, directly or through insurance (and Medicare is an insurance too btw) It is easy to suggest to terminate lives earlier when it isn't your life. History is full of such attempts. One should be glad that such a large sector of economy - healthcare - has a great stable demand and a great labor market. Overwork - teach more nurses and doctors. The issue is completely self-inflicted as the labor supply is artificially constrained: "In 2023, U.S. nursing schools turned away 65,766 qualified applicants from baccalaureate and graduate programs, according to the American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN)"

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
n8henrie 1y ago
In my experience it is rarely the patient making this choice. Much more often the children, who are often making a big show of how much more they love mom or dad compared to the other sibs.
- trhway 1y ago
  And the patient made that choice by establishing that family dynamics and by not having specific instructions even while seeing over decades the family dynamics they created themselves. I'd say that is an explicit clear choice. And anyway it isn't outsider's business to tell a family how to care for their own.
  - nicoburns 1y ago
    > And the patient made that choice by establishing that family dynamics and by not having specific instructions even while seeing over decades the family dynamics they created themselves. Most people who are old today (or in the last few decades) probably wouldn't have thought about it because it wasn't something that affected their parents who likely didn't live that long in the first place.
  - n8henrie 1y ago
    Very naive take. Patients' children regularly override the patient's clearly expressed wishes once the patient no longer has decisional capacity.
general1726 1y ago
> so what? It is on their dime, not yours. Actually in Europe it is on a dime of a taxpayer so also his.
- trhway 1y ago
  No, they paid into it their whole life. So, it is their dime not the current taxpayer’s. The taxpayer is paying for their own future.
  - general1726 1y ago
    That's not how state pensions or state healthcare works.
    - billy99k 1y ago
      Which is why we should be against taxpayer-funded healthcare: You don't get to make some of these decisions because you aren't paying for it.
nradov 1y ago
Medicare is not insurance. The word "insurance" has a specific meaning, and the traditional Medicare fee-for-service program doesn't meet that definition. (There are a variety of other payers or health plans in the US healthcare system which fill a similar role to insurance but are not actually insurance.)
- trhway 1y ago
  ok, call it a contract between an individual and society - the individual pays taxes today and when retired gets his/her medical needs taken care about by the society. Looks like an insurance contract to me, btw. Anyway, like with any contract, whatever the individual is due under that contract is his dime, not the taxpayers'.
  - nradov 1y ago
    It doesn't matter what you're due under a contract if the counterparty is insolvent. Medicare beneficiaries are going to have to accept reduced benefits and higher fees. This is unavoidable due to demographic changes.
    - trhway 1y ago
      the society reneging on its contract today means that the current taxpayers will lose the trust in the society and in particular will be significantly discouraged from paying taxes, etc. as they would lose belief in the society keeping its side of the bargain in the future.
      - nradov 1y ago
        It doesn't matter whether taxpayers are discouraged. Medicare taxes are automatically deducted by employers for most workers.
        trhway 1y ago
        taxpayers are voters. So it does matter a lot if they are discouraged.
_aavaa_ 1y ago
> One should be glad that such a large sector of economy - healthcare - has a great stable demand and a great labor market. This is not the tourism industry, a “great stable demand” is sick and suffering people. The hospital has limited resources, which are being taken up by people who have no hope of getting better (they ain’t getting younger). A push to do everything we can to stop them from dying buys us what? A few more months of pain and delirium before we reach the same result.

by trhway 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

n8henrie 1y ago

In my experience it is rarely the patient making this choice. Much more often the children, who are often making a big show of how much more they love mom or dad compared to the other sibs.

trhway 1y ago
And the patient made that choice by establishing that family dynamics and by not having specific instructions even while seeing over decades the family dynamics they created themselves. I'd say that is an explicit clear choice. And anyway it isn't outsider's business to tell a family how to care for their own.
- nicoburns 1y ago
  > And the patient made that choice by establishing that family dynamics and by not having specific instructions even while seeing over decades the family dynamics they created themselves. Most people who are old today (or in the last few decades) probably wouldn't have thought about it because it wasn't something that affected their parents who likely didn't live that long in the first place.
- n8henrie 1y ago
  Very naive take. Patients' children regularly override the patient's clearly expressed wishes once the patient no longer has decisional capacity.

general1726 1y ago

> so what? It is on their dime, not yours. Actually in Europe it is on a dime of a taxpayer so also his.

trhway 1y ago
No, they paid into it their whole life. So, it is their dime not the current taxpayer’s. The taxpayer is paying for their own future.
- general1726 1y ago
  That's not how state pensions or state healthcare works.
  - billy99k 1y ago
    Which is why we should be against taxpayer-funded healthcare: You don't get to make some of these decisions because you aren't paying for it.

nradov 1y ago

Medicare is not insurance. The word "insurance" has a specific meaning, and the traditional Medicare fee-for-service program doesn't meet that definition. (There are a variety of other payers or health plans in the US healthcare system which fill a similar role to insurance but are not actually insurance.)

trhway 1y ago
ok, call it a contract between an individual and society - the individual pays taxes today and when retired gets his/her medical needs taken care about by the society. Looks like an insurance contract to me, btw. Anyway, like with any contract, whatever the individual is due under that contract is his dime, not the taxpayers'.
- nradov 1y ago
  It doesn't matter what you're due under a contract if the counterparty is insolvent. Medicare beneficiaries are going to have to accept reduced benefits and higher fees. This is unavoidable due to demographic changes.
  - trhway 1y ago
    the society reneging on its contract today means that the current taxpayers will lose the trust in the society and in particular will be significantly discouraged from paying taxes, etc. as they would lose belief in the society keeping its side of the bargain in the future.
    - nradov 1y ago
      It doesn't matter whether taxpayers are discouraged. Medicare taxes are automatically deducted by employers for most workers.
      - trhway 1y ago
        taxpayers are voters. So it does matter a lot if they are discouraged.

_aavaa_ 1y ago

> One should be glad that such a large sector of economy - healthcare - has a great stable demand and a great labor market. This is not the tourism industry, a “great stable demand” is sick and suffering people. The hospital has limited resources, which are being taken up by people who have no hope of getting better (they ain’t getting younger). A push to do everything we can to stop them from dying buys us what? A few more months of pain and delirium before we reach the same result.