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I have thought that we should make entering the medical professions much easier. In order to become a nurse, you usually need a 4 year degree. This has two issu

I have thought that we should make entering the medical professions much easier. In order to become a nurse, you usually need a 4 year degree. This has two issues: 1. This is way to much time in the classroom. Much of that coursework simply isn't necessary. 2. You have people that would be good nurses piking other programs because they can't get passing marks in classes that are irrelevant to day to day nursing. Binding what are essentially professional programs to the academy is a mistake. Don't get me wrong, I love the academy. But we need nurses.

nicoburns 1y ago
That doesn't help if we don't have money to hire qualified nurses.
- the-grump 1y ago
  Larger supply leads to lower prices, if demand stays flat.
- CoastalCoder 1y ago
  If nurses had lower up-front costs for their own training, I could imagine that allowing lower wages without them being worse off financially. If we hand-wave away a lot of other market dynamics, I'm guessing.
  - rectang 1y ago
    CNAs (Certified Nursing Assistants) have low up-front training costs, but don't make a lot of money: an average of $19/hr [1]. So at least some of the less skilled work is being done with economic efficiency. [1] https://nursa.com/salary/cna https://nursa.com/salary/cna
FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
At least in the US, nursing does not require a 4 year degree. You can become an RN with an associates degree. A 2 year nursing degree has one of the highest returns on investment of any training program (especially if you go to community college). Ivy Tech CC in Indiana and WGU both have nursing programs with great returns. Keep in mind, nursing is not an easy path and has a super high burnout rate. It's a tough and demanding job. Other professions with a great return on training are HVAC, electrician, plumber, robotics/logic systems (CAM, conveyors, etc.). These are especially high paying if you focus on commercial and industrial.
- xnyan 1y ago
  A lot of people are surprised to learn the the average wage for both plumbers and electricians is ~30 bucks an hour, then that’s in exchange for body breaking work. A small subset earn more, but it’s not the norm.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
    Industrial electrician around here start at 30 - 35 for 2 years as a trainee then go to 40. That's top 10% income for low cost of living area. It's not unusual to hit 100k with no school debt at a young age. Industrial automation technician I have worked with makes north of 300k but he is traveling all over the world to do it.
  - quickthrowman 1y ago
    Union electricians and plumbers make good money, and the non-union shops that do commercial work have to pay close to union wages plus some fringes to get enough manpower. I pay $100/hr for a union journeyworker electrician in a metro area of ~3 million, $106 for a foreman, and $112 for a general foreman. Both of those include fringes, the split is about 55/45 or so. The contracts are for three-year terms with raises every year. Residential construction is a whole different ballgame that I’m unfamiliar with, but I’d imagine that’s where the average gets dragged down.
    - gishglish 1y ago
      > I pay $100/hr for a union journeyworker electrician in a metro area of ~3 million, $106 for a foreman, and $112 for a general foreman. Genuine question: Why? I picked the Cincinnati MSA, as an example, as it’s both bigger than yours and is likely to have unionized work. BLS says the 90th quartile is still only ~90k which while certainly not bad, is only the top 10%.
      - quickthrowman 1y ago
        > Genuine question: Why? Because.. that’s what the union charges my employer per hour for an electrician? I don’t have a choice lol Cincinnati is a rust belt city with depressed wages (no offense to anyone that lives there, but it’s the truth), my market is higher income (Minneapolis/St Paul) where a journeyworker makes $57/hr on the check instead of $38/hr like in Ohio, which is 1.5x (!!) higher.
jnwatson 1y ago
In the US, we have two tiers of nurse below the 4 year degree and one tier above, and we still have a major nursing shortage. You can get training to be a certified nursing assistant in just a few weeks here.
evoloution 1y ago
So are you hoping to be treated by nurses who are worse academically than the ones we have now? Or are you hoping that "others" will be treated by them while increased supply depresses wages for the good ones that you think will treat you? Also being a nurse is a very hard job, most people wouldn't last a year as an ER nurse in the US.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  We make them take classes like organic chemistry where they have to memorize the reaction of various metal catalysts. Calculus. Physics. These are all two semester classes that are considered hard in undergrad. And yet the nurse will never ever use what they learn in these classes outside them. They aren’t the ones synthesizing the drugs.
  - nradov 1y ago
    That's misinformation. Most BSN programs don't include those course requirements. https://www.sjsu.edu/nursing/programs/bsn.php https://www.sjsu.edu/nursing/programs/bsn.php
    - kjkjadksj 1y ago
      Some jobs that are basically nurse will go through standard biology major sequence (usually if there isn’t a more focus prehealth major offered). Physicians assistant is an example. PA school happens after undergrad. A lot of people going to med school end ul taking standard biology majors. Arguably they should have been able to drop all those undergrad prerequisites and spend more time getting clinical hours vs toiling on ochem. As a crude input filter, medical schools often expect you to volunteer for these hours shadowing workers in the medical system even though you have to find the time yourself on top of a full major load that doesn’t account for these extracurricular expectations.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- s1artibartfast 1y ago
jimbob45 1y ago
you usually need a 4 year degree In the US, it's not worth going into because you have to put in hundreds of hours of clinicals which are unpaid, yet just as useful to the employer as a job. Unpaid internships are illegal, yet these are legal and mandatory.

nicoburns 1y ago

That doesn't help if we don't have money to hire qualified nurses.

the-grump 1y ago
Larger supply leads to lower prices, if demand stays flat.
CoastalCoder 1y ago
If nurses had lower up-front costs for their own training, I could imagine that allowing lower wages without them being worse off financially. If we hand-wave away a lot of other market dynamics, I'm guessing.
- rectang 1y ago
  CNAs (Certified Nursing Assistants) have low up-front training costs, but don't make a lot of money: an average of $19/hr [1]. So at least some of the less skilled work is being done with economic efficiency. [1] https://nursa.com/salary/cna https://nursa.com/salary/cna

FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago

At least in the US, nursing does not require a 4 year degree. You can become an RN with an associates degree. A 2 year nursing degree has one of the highest returns on investment of any training program (especially if you go to community college). Ivy Tech CC in Indiana and WGU both have nursing programs with great returns. Keep in mind, nursing is not an easy path and has a super high burnout rate. It's a tough and demanding job. Other professions with a great return on training are HVAC, electrician, plumber, robotics/logic systems (CAM, conveyors, etc.). These are especially high paying if you focus on commercial and industrial.

xnyan 1y ago
A lot of people are surprised to learn the the average wage for both plumbers and electricians is ~30 bucks an hour, then that’s in exchange for body breaking work. A small subset earn more, but it’s not the norm.
- FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
  Industrial electrician around here start at 30 - 35 for 2 years as a trainee then go to 40. That's top 10% income for low cost of living area. It's not unusual to hit 100k with no school debt at a young age. Industrial automation technician I have worked with makes north of 300k but he is traveling all over the world to do it.
- quickthrowman 1y ago
  Union electricians and plumbers make good money, and the non-union shops that do commercial work have to pay close to union wages plus some fringes to get enough manpower. I pay $100/hr for a union journeyworker electrician in a metro area of ~3 million, $106 for a foreman, and $112 for a general foreman. Both of those include fringes, the split is about 55/45 or so. The contracts are for three-year terms with raises every year. Residential construction is a whole different ballgame that I’m unfamiliar with, but I’d imagine that’s where the average gets dragged down.
  - gishglish 1y ago
    > I pay $100/hr for a union journeyworker electrician in a metro area of ~3 million, $106 for a foreman, and $112 for a general foreman. Genuine question: Why? I picked the Cincinnati MSA, as an example, as it’s both bigger than yours and is likely to have unionized work. BLS says the 90th quartile is still only ~90k which while certainly not bad, is only the top 10%.
    - quickthrowman 1y ago
      > Genuine question: Why? Because.. that’s what the union charges my employer per hour for an electrician? I don’t have a choice lol Cincinnati is a rust belt city with depressed wages (no offense to anyone that lives there, but it’s the truth), my market is higher income (Minneapolis/St Paul) where a journeyworker makes $57/hr on the check instead of $38/hr like in Ohio, which is 1.5x (!!) higher.

jnwatson 1y ago

In the US, we have two tiers of nurse below the 4 year degree and one tier above, and we still have a major nursing shortage. You can get training to be a certified nursing assistant in just a few weeks here.

evoloution 1y ago

So are you hoping to be treated by nurses who are worse academically than the ones we have now? Or are you hoping that "others" will be treated by them while increased supply depresses wages for the good ones that you think will treat you? Also being a nurse is a very hard job, most people wouldn't last a year as an ER nurse in the US.

kjkjadksj 1y ago
We make them take classes like organic chemistry where they have to memorize the reaction of various metal catalysts. Calculus. Physics. These are all two semester classes that are considered hard in undergrad. And yet the nurse will never ever use what they learn in these classes outside them. They aren’t the ones synthesizing the drugs.
- nradov 1y ago
  That's misinformation. Most BSN programs don't include those course requirements. https://www.sjsu.edu/nursing/programs/bsn.php https://www.sjsu.edu/nursing/programs/bsn.php
  - kjkjadksj 1y ago
    Some jobs that are basically nurse will go through standard biology major sequence (usually if there isn’t a more focus prehealth major offered). Physicians assistant is an example. PA school happens after undergrad. A lot of people going to med school end ul taking standard biology majors. Arguably they should have been able to drop all those undergrad prerequisites and spend more time getting clinical hours vs toiling on ochem. As a crude input filter, medical schools often expect you to volunteer for these hours shadowing workers in the medical system even though you have to find the time yourself on top of a full major load that doesn’t account for these extracurricular expectations.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
s1artibartfast 1y ago

jimbob45 1y ago

you usually need a 4 year degree In the US, it's not worth going into because you have to put in hundreds of hours of clinicals which are unpaid, yet just as useful to the employer as a job. Unpaid internships are illegal, yet these are legal and mandatory.