4 ms·

After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd h

After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd have done worse.

throw310822 1y ago
Ok, by this logic you're justifying whatever Hamas did, since many, many daughters of Palestinians and Gazans have been killed (and in some cases, raped) by Israel and Israeli soldiers for decades. And by the same proportion, what would be the justified reaction of Palestinians to Israel now if they had the means? Complete nuclear annihilation?
- gadders 1y ago
  I think if Palestinians had nukes (or Iran), they would have already done this. Israel exists. That bell can't be un-rung. Palestinians could have got used to that fact and tried to build a nation, instead they want to kill Jews (and it is Jews, not just Israelis). Israel doesn't have clean hands in this, and could have done better as well. I've not heard of mass rapes by Israeli soldiers, though.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    You escaped my question. I've asked you if by your own logic the October 7 attack was justified, and what would be the proportionate reaction to the ongoing genocide.
    - gadders 1y ago
      I don't believe there is an ongoing genocide. There is a shitty war in an urban environment.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        You have again eluded my question.
        gadders 1y ago
        IF (and If is carrying a lot of weight in this statement) there is a genocide going on, then the victims should fight back by whatever means possible. This applies to any genocide - Jews in WW2, Rwanda etc,
        throw310822 1y ago
        And "if" there is only occupation, progressive annexation, pogroms, apartheid (in the occupied territories), destruction of houses and villages, of crops, periodic bombardments with thousands of civilian deaths, total blockade- and this goes on for decades with absolutely no recourse to justice (as we see, Western governments have troubles condemning Israel even for the total destruction of Gaza)? Then how do you think the victims should be allowed to fight back? How would you fight back if that were happening to you?
        gadders 1y ago
        Is it happening and then they fought back, or did they attack and it started happening?
        throw310822 1y ago
        We could argue about who started (certainly it didn't start on October 7, if that's what you mean), but that's beside the point, I think. We can assume the the cycle of violence has been going on forever, with no clear initiator (or with an initiator on the losing side, for what matters). Would you be relieved to know that they're taking your home and killing your innocent family because someone on your side did something bad before? Or would the sense of injustice push you to more violence against the other side? And how would you deal with the knowledge that the other side is actually gaining ground at each further round of violence, unilaterally deciding what's fair for them to take, and that even if you can swallow your pride and stay put, someone else from your side eventually break and provide more reasons for the next persecution?
  - Zacharias030 1y ago
    could have done better is the understatement of the century. And how many rapes and to what level of systematicity do you need it to raise to your attention? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Gaza_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_viol... > During the ongoing Gaza war, Israeli male and female soldiers, guards, medical staff have reportedly committed wartime sexual violence against Palestinian women, children and men[1][2][3][4] including rape, gang-rape, sexualized torture and genital mutilation.[5][6][7][8][9]
    - gadders 1y ago
      If that's the case, the people responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  Oct 7th wasnt justified because there was no way it could work. It was 100% doomed to make the lives worse for everyone in gaza. If it had a chance of working it would be justified. Alls fair in love and war after all, but just terrorism against an enemy as resolute as israel isnt war, its suicide. Palestine has every right to attack israel, their problem is that they cant.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    True, Palestine can't win against Israel with its own forces. No military can, in fact, as the world's sole superpower is ready to defend it unconditionally and at all costs. So the only way out is to force the West to change their mind and break their ties with Israel. I don't know if those who planned October 7 had in mind only to use the hostages to keep the West's attention on Palestine, or if they had already taken in account Israel's barbaric reaction. Somehow though, at an absurd price, it's working. The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. What is incredible is the straitjacket that the Israeli lobbies have put the Western leaders in: two years into a televised genocide the Western powers have barely started to condemn it in words, but still have failed to take any meaningful action. Of this, too, the people are taking notice.
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      > The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. Frankly, so what? The west cant abandon Israel because the second they do israel just turns to china and begins the actual final solution to their palestinian problem. If you think the israelis are mistreating the palestinians now just wait until you see what they do when theyre a full pariah state. End of the day geopolitical reality for western leaders is still probably that backing israel is better than the alternatives for them.
aa-jv 1y ago
The US is not a moral standard worth an ounce of spit when it comes to war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale. It literally murdered 5% of Iraq's population in cold blood on the basis of outright lies. Iraqi mothers still suffer the US' war crimes.
- gadders 1y ago
  Yes, I think we all realise that nation-building and intervening in foreign countries for regime change is a mistake, and what comes after is usually worse (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies.
  - aa-jv 1y ago
    >Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies. That is utterly incorrect. They want to live in sovereign democracies with control over their own nations resources. The USA and its allies do not want that, as they have - as a whole - designated themselves the "shepherds" of the "lesser cultures of the world". A viewpoint you have propagated.
Zacharias030 1y ago
The US actions after 9/11 have been established as a terrible example harming the US itself to the utmost. Both the US and Israel would have been better off not reacting at all than this.
UncleMeat 1y ago
Yes and this was incredibly evil and should go down in the history books as a crime. It is true that the US often acts like an imperialist monster. That doesn't make other similar behavior acceptable.

After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd have done worse.

throw310822 1y ago

Ok, by this logic you're justifying whatever Hamas did, since many, many daughters of Palestinians and Gazans have been killed (and in some cases, raped) by Israel and Israeli soldiers for decades. And by the same proportion, what would be the justified reaction of Palestinians to Israel now if they had the means? Complete nuclear annihilation?

gadders 1y ago
I think if Palestinians had nukes (or Iran), they would have already done this. Israel exists. That bell can't be un-rung. Palestinians could have got used to that fact and tried to build a nation, instead they want to kill Jews (and it is Jews, not just Israelis). Israel doesn't have clean hands in this, and could have done better as well. I've not heard of mass rapes by Israeli soldiers, though.
- throw310822 1y ago
  You escaped my question. I've asked you if by your own logic the October 7 attack was justified, and what would be the proportionate reaction to the ongoing genocide.
  - gadders 1y ago
    I don't believe there is an ongoing genocide. There is a shitty war in an urban environment.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      You have again eluded my question.
      - gadders 1y ago
        IF (and If is carrying a lot of weight in this statement) there is a genocide going on, then the victims should fight back by whatever means possible. This applies to any genocide - Jews in WW2, Rwanda etc,
        throw310822 1y ago
        And "if" there is only occupation, progressive annexation, pogroms, apartheid (in the occupied territories), destruction of houses and villages, of crops, periodic bombardments with thousands of civilian deaths, total blockade- and this goes on for decades with absolutely no recourse to justice (as we see, Western governments have troubles condemning Israel even for the total destruction of Gaza)? Then how do you think the victims should be allowed to fight back? How would you fight back if that were happening to you?
        gadders 1y ago
        Is it happening and then they fought back, or did they attack and it started happening?
        throw310822 1y ago
        We could argue about who started (certainly it didn't start on October 7, if that's what you mean), but that's beside the point, I think. We can assume the the cycle of violence has been going on forever, with no clear initiator (or with an initiator on the losing side, for what matters). Would you be relieved to know that they're taking your home and killing your innocent family because someone on your side did something bad before? Or would the sense of injustice push you to more violence against the other side? And how would you deal with the knowledge that the other side is actually gaining ground at each further round of violence, unilaterally deciding what's fair for them to take, and that even if you can swallow your pride and stay put, someone else from your side eventually break and provide more reasons for the next persecution?
- Zacharias030 1y ago
  could have done better is the understatement of the century. And how many rapes and to what level of systematicity do you need it to raise to your attention? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Gaza_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_viol... > During the ongoing Gaza war, Israeli male and female soldiers, guards, medical staff have reportedly committed wartime sexual violence against Palestinian women, children and men[1][2][3][4] including rape, gang-rape, sexualized torture and genital mutilation.[5][6][7][8][9]
  - gadders 1y ago
    If that's the case, the people responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
HDThoreaun 1y ago
Oct 7th wasnt justified because there was no way it could work. It was 100% doomed to make the lives worse for everyone in gaza. If it had a chance of working it would be justified. Alls fair in love and war after all, but just terrorism against an enemy as resolute as israel isnt war, its suicide. Palestine has every right to attack israel, their problem is that they cant.
- throw310822 1y ago
  True, Palestine can't win against Israel with its own forces. No military can, in fact, as the world's sole superpower is ready to defend it unconditionally and at all costs. So the only way out is to force the West to change their mind and break their ties with Israel. I don't know if those who planned October 7 had in mind only to use the hostages to keep the West's attention on Palestine, or if they had already taken in account Israel's barbaric reaction. Somehow though, at an absurd price, it's working. The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. What is incredible is the straitjacket that the Israeli lobbies have put the Western leaders in: two years into a televised genocide the Western powers have barely started to condemn it in words, but still have failed to take any meaningful action. Of this, too, the people are taking notice.
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    > The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. Frankly, so what? The west cant abandon Israel because the second they do israel just turns to china and begins the actual final solution to their palestinian problem. If you think the israelis are mistreating the palestinians now just wait until you see what they do when theyre a full pariah state. End of the day geopolitical reality for western leaders is still probably that backing israel is better than the alternatives for them.

aa-jv 1y ago

The US is not a moral standard worth an ounce of spit when it comes to war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale. It literally murdered 5% of Iraq's population in cold blood on the basis of outright lies. Iraqi mothers still suffer the US' war crimes.

gadders 1y ago
Yes, I think we all realise that nation-building and intervening in foreign countries for regime change is a mistake, and what comes after is usually worse (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies.
- aa-jv 1y ago
  >Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies. That is utterly incorrect. They want to live in sovereign democracies with control over their own nations resources. The USA and its allies do not want that, as they have - as a whole - designated themselves the "shepherds" of the "lesser cultures of the world". A viewpoint you have propagated.

Zacharias030 1y ago

The US actions after 9/11 have been established as a terrible example harming the US itself to the utmost. Both the US and Israel would have been better off not reacting at all than this.

UncleMeat 1y ago

Yes and this was incredibly evil and should go down in the history books as a crime. It is true that the US often acts like an imperialist monster. That doesn't make other similar behavior acceptable.