3 ms·

Not a massive fan of Israel, but I can't see any other country reacting in a different way to Oct 7th. The Hamas attack has to be one of the dumbest strategic m

Not a massive fan of Israel, but I can't see any other country reacting in a different way to Oct 7th. The Hamas attack has to be one of the dumbest strategic moves ever made.

throw310822 1y ago
You mean reacting with war crimes, crimes against humanity, attempted genocide? This without even mentioning the fact that, given Israel's ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine, a military attack to Israel was entirely justified.
- gadders 1y ago
  After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd have done worse.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    Ok, by this logic you're justifying whatever Hamas did, since many, many daughters of Palestinians and Gazans have been killed (and in some cases, raped) by Israel and Israeli soldiers for decades. And by the same proportion, what would be the justified reaction of Palestinians to Israel now if they had the means? Complete nuclear annihilation?
    - gadders 1y ago
      I think if Palestinians had nukes (or Iran), they would have already done this. Israel exists. That bell can't be un-rung. Palestinians could have got used to that fact and tried to build a nation, instead they want to kill Jews (and it is Jews, not just Israelis). Israel doesn't have clean hands in this, and could have done better as well. I've not heard of mass rapes by Israeli soldiers, though.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        You escaped my question. I've asked you if by your own logic the October 7 attack was justified, and what would be the proportionate reaction to the ongoing genocide.
        gadders 1y ago
        I don't believe there is an ongoing genocide. There is a shitty war in an urban environment.
        throw310822 1y ago
        You have again eluded my question.
        gadders 1y ago
        IF (and If is carrying a lot of weight in this statement) there is a genocide going on, then the victims should fight back by whatever means possible. This applies to any genocide - Jews in WW2, Rwanda etc,
        throw310822 1y ago
        And "if" there is only occupation, progressive annexation, pogroms, apartheid (in the occupied territories), destruction of houses and villages, of crops, periodic bombardments with thousands of civilian deaths, total blockade- and this goes on for decades with absolutely no recourse to justice (as we see, Western governments have troubles condemning Israel even for the total destruction of Gaza)? Then how do you think the victims should be allowed to fight back? How would you fight back if that were happening to you?
        gadders 1y ago
        Is it happening and then they fought back, or did they attack and it started happening?
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      Oct 7th wasnt justified because there was no way it could work. It was 100% doomed to make the lives worse for everyone in gaza. If it had a chance of working it would be justified. Alls fair in love and war after all, but just terrorism against an enemy as resolute as israel isnt war, its suicide. Palestine has every right to attack israel, their problem is that they cant.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        True, Palestine can't win against Israel with its own forces. No military can, in fact, as the world's sole superpower is ready to defend it unconditionally and at all costs. So the only way out is to force the West to change their mind and break their ties with Israel. I don't know if those who planned October 7 had in mind only to use the hostages to keep the West's attention on Palestine, or if they had already taken in account Israel's barbaric reaction. Somehow though, at an absurd price, it's working. The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. What is incredible is the straitjacket that the Israeli lobbies have put the Western leaders in: two years into a televised genocide the Western powers have barely started to condemn it in words, but still have failed to take any meaningful action. Of this, too, the people are taking notice.
        HDThoreaun 1y ago
        > The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. Frankly, so what? The west cant abandon Israel because the second they do israel just turns to china and begins the actual final solution to their palestinian problem. If you think the israelis are mistreating the palestinians now just wait until you see what they do when theyre a full pariah state. End of the day geopolitical reality for western leaders is still probably that backing israel is better than the alternatives for them.
  - aa-jv 1y ago
    The US is not a moral standard worth an ounce of spit when it comes to war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale. It literally murdered 5% of Iraq's population in cold blood on the basis of outright lies. Iraqi mothers still suffer the US' war crimes.
    - gadders 1y ago
      Yes, I think we all realise that nation-building and intervening in foreign countries for regime change is a mistake, and what comes after is usually worse (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies.
      - aa-jv 1y ago
        >Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies. That is utterly incorrect. They want to live in sovereign democracies with control over their own nations resources. The USA and its allies do not want that, as they have - as a whole - designated themselves the "shepherds" of the "lesser cultures of the world". A viewpoint you have propagated.
  - Zacharias030 1y ago
    The US actions after 9/11 have been established as a terrible example harming the US itself to the utmost. Both the US and Israel would have been better off not reacting at all than this.
  - UncleMeat 1y ago
    Yes and this was incredibly evil and should go down in the history books as a crime. It is true that the US often acts like an imperialist monster. That doesn't make other similar behavior acceptable.
tyingq 1y ago
Hamas is an exacerbating symptom, not a primary cause. A decades-long apartheid breeds fierce, brutal resistance.

Not a massive fan of Israel, but I can't see any other country reacting in a different way to Oct 7th. The Hamas attack has to be one of the dumbest strategic moves ever made.

throw310822 1y ago

You mean reacting with war crimes, crimes against humanity, attempted genocide? This without even mentioning the fact that, given Israel's ongoing illegal occupation of Palestine, a military attack to Israel was entirely justified.

gadders 1y ago
After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd have done worse.
- throw310822 1y ago
  Ok, by this logic you're justifying whatever Hamas did, since many, many daughters of Palestinians and Gazans have been killed (and in some cases, raped) by Israel and Israeli soldiers for decades. And by the same proportion, what would be the justified reaction of Palestinians to Israel now if they had the means? Complete nuclear annihilation?
  - gadders 1y ago
    I think if Palestinians had nukes (or Iran), they would have already done this. Israel exists. That bell can't be un-rung. Palestinians could have got used to that fact and tried to build a nation, instead they want to kill Jews (and it is Jews, not just Israelis). Israel doesn't have clean hands in this, and could have done better as well. I've not heard of mass rapes by Israeli soldiers, though.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      You escaped my question. I've asked you if by your own logic the October 7 attack was justified, and what would be the proportionate reaction to the ongoing genocide.
      - gadders 1y ago
        I don't believe there is an ongoing genocide. There is a shitty war in an urban environment.
        throw310822 1y ago
        You have again eluded my question.
        gadders 1y ago
        IF (and If is carrying a lot of weight in this statement) there is a genocide going on, then the victims should fight back by whatever means possible. This applies to any genocide - Jews in WW2, Rwanda etc,
        throw310822 1y ago
        And "if" there is only occupation, progressive annexation, pogroms, apartheid (in the occupied territories), destruction of houses and villages, of crops, periodic bombardments with thousands of civilian deaths, total blockade- and this goes on for decades with absolutely no recourse to justice (as we see, Western governments have troubles condemning Israel even for the total destruction of Gaza)? Then how do you think the victims should be allowed to fight back? How would you fight back if that were happening to you?
        gadders 1y ago
        Is it happening and then they fought back, or did they attack and it started happening?
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    Oct 7th wasnt justified because there was no way it could work. It was 100% doomed to make the lives worse for everyone in gaza. If it had a chance of working it would be justified. Alls fair in love and war after all, but just terrorism against an enemy as resolute as israel isnt war, its suicide. Palestine has every right to attack israel, their problem is that they cant.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      True, Palestine can't win against Israel with its own forces. No military can, in fact, as the world's sole superpower is ready to defend it unconditionally and at all costs. So the only way out is to force the West to change their mind and break their ties with Israel. I don't know if those who planned October 7 had in mind only to use the hostages to keep the West's attention on Palestine, or if they had already taken in account Israel's barbaric reaction. Somehow though, at an absurd price, it's working. The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. What is incredible is the straitjacket that the Israeli lobbies have put the Western leaders in: two years into a televised genocide the Western powers have barely started to condemn it in words, but still have failed to take any meaningful action. Of this, too, the people are taking notice.
      - HDThoreaun 1y ago
        > The public image of Israel is compromised for decades, people are horrified, Israeli lobbies are exposed, the ICC has issued arrest warrants against the Israeli PM, the call for sanctions is louder every day, the images of a new genocide are on everyone's screens. Frankly, so what? The west cant abandon Israel because the second they do israel just turns to china and begins the actual final solution to their palestinian problem. If you think the israelis are mistreating the palestinians now just wait until you see what they do when theyre a full pariah state. End of the day geopolitical reality for western leaders is still probably that backing israel is better than the alternatives for them.
- aa-jv 1y ago
  The US is not a moral standard worth an ounce of spit when it comes to war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale. It literally murdered 5% of Iraq's population in cold blood on the basis of outright lies. Iraqi mothers still suffer the US' war crimes.
  - gadders 1y ago
    Yes, I think we all realise that nation-building and intervening in foreign countries for regime change is a mistake, and what comes after is usually worse (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc). Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies.
    - aa-jv 1y ago
      >Unfortunately the citizens of these countries don't want to live in functioning democracies. That is utterly incorrect. They want to live in sovereign democracies with control over their own nations resources. The USA and its allies do not want that, as they have - as a whole - designated themselves the "shepherds" of the "lesser cultures of the world". A viewpoint you have propagated.
- Zacharias030 1y ago
  The US actions after 9/11 have been established as a terrible example harming the US itself to the utmost. Both the US and Israel would have been better off not reacting at all than this.
- UncleMeat 1y ago
  Yes and this was incredibly evil and should go down in the history books as a crime. It is true that the US often acts like an imperialist monster. That doesn't make other similar behavior acceptable.

tyingq 1y ago

Hamas is an exacerbating symptom, not a primary cause. A decades-long apartheid breeds fierce, brutal resistance.