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Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservative parties across the world, including in the anglosphere, often advocate for laws that limit freedom but accomplis

Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservative parties across the world, including in the anglosphere, often advocate for laws that limit freedom but accomplish ulterior conservative goals.

permo-w 1y ago
freedom isn't just freedom. it's freedom for. conservatives tend to favour freedom for businesses. freedom for the establishment. freedom for the rich. you would hope that progressives favour freedom for everyone, but nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups
- wkat4242 1y ago
  > nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. The bigger issue is that the left hasn't really existed in most countries for a long time, like the UK. "new labour" betrayed their heritage and adopted conservative points of view. Leaders who are trying to bring it back like Corbyn are ridiculed and marginalised.
  - hellojesus 1y ago
    > The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. Policies such as government supported housing, daycare, support this. These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. They introduce deadweight loss and moral hazard. Imo this is the folly of the left.
    - ryandv 1y ago
      > My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. > These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. Moreover despite all the constant pearl clutching about "systemic imbalances in resources between whites and People of Color" from the progressive left, you will find that most of these policies actually transfer wealth from the middle and upper-middle class ethnic minority demographics to rich white nepotists in the government. If progressives were actually serious about correcting racial wealth disparities, we would implement a taxation scheme that taxes whites more heavily, and ethnic minorities less so, based on some metric of the overall injustices visited upon them. Instead, the instant an ethnic minority gets a leg up on the system all the crabs in the progressive bucket demand that he get pulled back down. The words and slogans about "equity" are just hymnal responses that the white progressive uses to absolve themselves of all responsibility and accountability, since after accepting the Code of Conduct and the DEI statement they've already been "born again" out of the original sins of implicit bias and racism.
      - wkat4242 1y ago
        Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us. And DEI is something that is not about quotas at all. It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind", which is ironically enough what Trump says how he wants things to be (but in reality he is very racist).
        ryandv 1y ago
        > Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us. You are under the core progressive delusion that choosing not to identify or label yourself as a thing, means you are in fact not that thing. In truth, the labeling of a thing is completely orthogonal to its ontological status. Concrete example: most of the left believes in a "gender identity," which is an immaterial, non-objective, unobservable, unscientific, metaphysical phenomenon that is somehow "more you" than the material reality of the physical body. If you strip away the gender theory jargon, you end up with a concept equivalent to "the soul", which is in contemporary discourse usually regarded as a religious, not a scientific, concept. You may have called it something else - a gender identity - but despite the difference in nomenclature you are still describing and referring to the same thing the religious devotees referred to when they talked about "the soul." > It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind" Again more progressive fanfiction and creative wordsmithing with no relationship to reality. The Supreme Court struck down DEI policies (rebranded affirmative action) on the basis that they were, quoting Justice Clarence Thomas, "rudderless, race-based preferences" [0] [1]. This is literally the opposite of being "colorblind." I stand very firm in my position that everything progressives say is a direct negation of reality. [0] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action... [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-courts-conservative-majority-strikes-down-race-based-affirmative-action-in-university-admissions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-courts-conserv...
  - permo-w 1y ago
    >That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. this is misreading what I said. what I said is that the left isn't redistributing enough money
Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago
> Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservatism is the ideology that some people are protected by the law but not bound by it, while others are bound by the law but not protected by it. Obviously if you are in the first group that sounds like the best kind of freedom, meanwhile everyone else is unprotected and punished, which makes sense why they would not want that kind of goverment structure.

Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservative parties across the world, including in the anglosphere, often advocate for laws that limit freedom but accomplish ulterior conservative goals.

permo-w 1y ago

freedom isn't just freedom. it's freedom for. conservatives tend to favour freedom for businesses. freedom for the establishment. freedom for the rich. you would hope that progressives favour freedom for everyone, but nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups

wkat4242 1y ago
> nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. The bigger issue is that the left hasn't really existed in most countries for a long time, like the UK. "new labour" betrayed their heritage and adopted conservative points of view. Leaders who are trying to bring it back like Corbyn are ridiculed and marginalised.
- hellojesus 1y ago
  > The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. Policies such as government supported housing, daycare, support this. These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. They introduce deadweight loss and moral hazard. Imo this is the folly of the left.
  - ryandv 1y ago
    > My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. > These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. Moreover despite all the constant pearl clutching about "systemic imbalances in resources between whites and People of Color" from the progressive left, you will find that most of these policies actually transfer wealth from the middle and upper-middle class ethnic minority demographics to rich white nepotists in the government. If progressives were actually serious about correcting racial wealth disparities, we would implement a taxation scheme that taxes whites more heavily, and ethnic minorities less so, based on some metric of the overall injustices visited upon them. Instead, the instant an ethnic minority gets a leg up on the system all the crabs in the progressive bucket demand that he get pulled back down. The words and slogans about "equity" are just hymnal responses that the white progressive uses to absolve themselves of all responsibility and accountability, since after accepting the Code of Conduct and the DEI statement they've already been "born again" out of the original sins of implicit bias and racism.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us. And DEI is something that is not about quotas at all. It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind", which is ironically enough what Trump says how he wants things to be (but in reality he is very racist).
      - ryandv 1y ago
        > Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us. You are under the core progressive delusion that choosing not to identify or label yourself as a thing, means you are in fact not that thing. In truth, the labeling of a thing is completely orthogonal to its ontological status. Concrete example: most of the left believes in a "gender identity," which is an immaterial, non-objective, unobservable, unscientific, metaphysical phenomenon that is somehow "more you" than the material reality of the physical body. If you strip away the gender theory jargon, you end up with a concept equivalent to "the soul", which is in contemporary discourse usually regarded as a religious, not a scientific, concept. You may have called it something else - a gender identity - but despite the difference in nomenclature you are still describing and referring to the same thing the religious devotees referred to when they talked about "the soul." > It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind" Again more progressive fanfiction and creative wordsmithing with no relationship to reality. The Supreme Court struck down DEI policies (rebranded affirmative action) on the basis that they were, quoting Justice Clarence Thomas, "rudderless, race-based preferences" [0] [1]. This is literally the opposite of being "colorblind." I stand very firm in my position that everything progressives say is a direct negation of reality. [0] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action-supreme-court-decision https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action... [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-courts-conservative-majority-strikes-down-race-based-affirmative-action-in-university-admissions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-courts-conserv...
- permo-w 1y ago
  >That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away. this is misreading what I said. what I said is that the left isn't redistributing enough money

Arkhaine_kupo 1y ago

> Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservatism is the ideology that some people are protected by the law but not bound by it, while others are bound by the law but not protected by it. Obviously if you are in the first group that sounds like the best kind of freedom, meanwhile everyone else is unprotected and punished, which makes sense why they would not want that kind of goverment structure.