6 ms·
More women than expected are genetically men (2016)
- thrawa8387336 1y ago2016?
- KittenInABox 1y agoShould have a (2016) added to it. The paper is here: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/jc.2016-2248 http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/jc.2016-2248 I wonder what research into prevalence has done now, close to 10 years later and with way more political focus.
- jodrellblank 1y agotl;dr: "One in 15,000 males is born and grows up as a girl. .. this group is up to 50% larger than previously assumed"
- realo 1y agoWell... that would be more than 20,000 USA-ians. Soon targeted for deportation? Or maybe some therapy ... you know ... to make them 'normal' again.
- jodrellblank 1y agoThe article isn't talking about trans people, it's talking about Androgen insensitivity and similar genetic disorders. AFAICT from a quick read, they are no more curable than Downe's Syndrome is.
- etchalon 1y agoI'm shocked to find out that sex is more complicated than gender identity, and that there might be a bimodal distribution at play. I have been lied to.
- kulahan 1y agoNothing in biology is really binary anyways. Male and female are just useful groupings because we’re a sexually dimorphic species, but as with anything in nature, that’s mostly a spectrum anyways, with strong representations at the anchoring ends.
- jenadine 1y agoIn some species, sex is even quaternary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25223127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25223127 (or is it?)
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- realo 1y agoThere is a certain degree of muted cynicism in the parent comment that is quite delightful...
- kulahan 1y agoYep, just thought this was an interesting point to go along with the theme.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- poly2it 1y agoI think the parent was being ironic.
- andoando 1y agoI mean having an X or Y are pretty damn binary. DNA strand has binary pairs (A-T, C-G). The resulting codons have anitcodon pairs. Then within biological functions you have the parasympathetic system vs the parasympathetic system which do opposite things across the whole body, pro vs anti inflmmatory agents, activators vs inhibitors nearly on every level of biology. Its actually rather astounding how much binary pairs play a role from the very core of physics.
- _lvbh 1y ago> “It is very upsetting for people who have grown up and lived for years believing that they are of a particular sex to suddenly discover that they are actually of the opposite sex. This can be a relief but can also be a loss. For most people it comes as a shock that upends their whole identity. Coping with this can take years,” I find this statement odd. Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determine gender? What more is there to cope with beyond a simple genetic abnormality. It's not like discovering this means they suddenly have to register as the opposite gender or use a different bathroom. It's like taking a 13andme test and finding it hard to cope that you're 10% asian.
- prmoustache 1y ago>Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determine gender? This is not universally accepted.
- drdeca 1y agoRace is a substantially less real concept than sex is.
- otterley 1y agoWhat does "real" mean here?
- stanfordkid 1y agoIt means two people of different races can have a baby together, but two people of the same sex cannot.
- otterley 1y agoSure, but does that make it any less "real"?
- prmoustache 1y ago
- jawns 1y agoTo be more precise than the headline: People with disorders of sex development such as Morris or Swyer syndrome have XY chromosomes, but they have female external genitalia, because the sexual development that would normally be triggered by XY chromosomes is somehow suppressed.
- pimlottc 1y ago[flagged]
- blueflow 1y ago[flagged]
- CoastalCoder 1y agoMy guess is that many are weary of this aspect of recent culture wars, and would prefer the conversation focuses on the interesting science instead. Note: I did not vote on the comment in question.
- jrm4 1y agoObviously, our two options here (and pretty much always are) "don't use this word because it hurts feelings and reinforces stereotypes" or "let's all step back and try to decide/encourage the idea that it is actually useful enough to use" Here, the latter seems appropriate? "Disorder" is "out of order," it is something that is rare. I suppose "rare condition" might work too, I'm open to suggestions.
- Aurornis 1y ago> Can't know what is a disorder is or not when you don't know whats "normal" I hesitate to wade into this discussion, but in the case of the conditions listed in the article there are a number of additional symptoms and medical difficulties that go along with the genetic variants. It's not a simple matter of confusion about sex. As for "normal": The biological systems involved are not functioning normally because a genetic mutation prevents them from doing so. For example, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome means the person's androgen receptors are dysfunctional, and therefore biological functions that rely on androgen receptor activation are not working. I know the concept of "normal" and "disorder" can trigger people, but biologically speaking this condition arises due to rare genetic variants that stop biological functions from working as intended. The medical speak is not meant to cast social judgment on these people.
- pseudosavant 1y agoVery interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex organs and male chromosomes that have competed in female sports. I don't know what the "fairness" answer is, but these are real people.
- qingcharles 1y agoWe, as a society, need to understand there is no good solution to the issue of gender in sports (excluding gender-neutral ones like shooting etc). Should all just play esports instead.
- mhog_hn 1y agoI hope the best for them and the people they compete against. Thanks for sharing.
- deadbabe 1y agoAsk a person bound by cerebral palsy with a dream to play pro basketball what fairness is.
- a4isms 1y agoIt's not a dichotomy between "unfair" and "absolutely fair." Things can be more or less fair, and it makes sense to discuss making things "more fair" or "less unfair" even if in doing so, we cannot reach "perfectly fair for everyone, all the time."
- hydrogen7800 1y agoSome disabilities cannot be overcome by public acceptance and accommodation, and some can to varying degrees, eg. the Americans With Disabilities Act.
- runeblaze 1y ago
- OutOfHere 1y ago[flagged]
- KittenInABox 1y ago[flagged]
- OutOfHere 1y agoObviously you took it maximally out of context, just as someone operating in bad faith would do. To restate with more clarity, if "she" doesn't menstruate (at a valid of menstruation) or doesn't develop natural breasts, she may not be able to give birth.
- KittenInABox 1y agoI'm merely responding with the bad faith reading you're presenting here, as woman is a squishy and cultural word to describe an additionally squishy biological set of states. At no point does the article declare them not to be women, only that they are women with genetic conditions from having a Y chromosome (or even just a section of the Y chromosome), a shorthand of which they call "genetically men".
- Kye 1y agoI forget the details, but someone asserting clear lines on Twitter some years ago was asked to define woman, and people kept hitting them with examples that matched the proposed definition like chairs and horses.
- EnergyAmy 1y agoIt's not squishy, and it's not hard. Woman means adult female human, and female means someone that produces the larger of two gamete sizes. That's the real, literal biological definition. Since I'm rate limited, to be slightly more specific, it's the gamete size one would or should produce. I elided that part but biologists are well aware of disorders of development. Another edit: This has nothing to do with religion or any sort of intelligent design woo. Read "should" as "would if it were mature and healthy".
- Aurornis 1y agoThe headline is rather reductive, presumably to be more provocative. The actual frequency of these conditions is hard to measure for several reasons, but other studies generally do not indicate rates this high. The headline implies that this singular study from the Danish Cytogenetic Central Registry voids previous studies and takes their place as the new, singular source of truth. That's not how epidemiology works, though, so this study should be considered another data point with associated sampling bias, not a refutation of previous statistics. These cases are the result of genetic variants, so sampling within a single region (as is the case with this study) can't be extrapolated to the entire population.
- aghastnj 1y agoThis is especially true if you're drunk and a US Marine stationed overseas...
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- AStonesThrow 1y ago[dead]
- givemeethekeys 1y agoOne in 15k. That suggests that there are roughly 22k females who were born male in the USA. That is a high enough number that, were they to gather somewhere, you'd notice them, but a low enough number that trying to create laws to give them special treatment is political suicide.
- sys32768 1y agoHere's an actual person with this which is far more personable than this article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcSCW51PSIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcSCW51PSIs