4 ms·

They don't want telemetry ever disabled, even for a minority of people who do toggle it off. Why?

msgodel 1y ago
Telemetry toggles add noise to the data at the very least. IMO it's part of the reason you're actually better off with no client-side telemetry at all. Obviously they see it the opposite way.
imglorp 1y ago
Disabling telemetry might be interpreted as a self-indicated signal of "I have something to hide", so they jack up the snooping.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  I suspect many (or all) VPNs probably do secret logging. People will do their most interesting secret activities on those.
  - rvnx 1y ago
    Like Signal users. The only thing it signals is that the user is interesting. There is also a reason why it is not allowed for classified use.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      This isn't true, this is the sort of toxic "if I have nothing to hide then why value privacy" ideology that got us into this privacy nightmare. Every single person has "something to hide", and that's normal. It's normal to not want your messages snooped through. It doesn't mean you're a criminal, or even computer-saavy.
      - rvnx 1y ago
        Mhhh it is not really about “nothing to hide”, it was more that if you use niche services targeted at privacy, it puts a big target on you. Like the Casio watches, travelling to Syria, using Tor, Protonmail, etc… When it is better in reality to have a regular watch, a Gmail with encrypted .zip files or whatever, etc. It does not mean you are a criminal if you have that Casio watch, but if you have this, plus encrypted emails, plus travel to some countries as a tourist, you are almost certain to put yourself in trouble for nothing, while you tried to protect yourself. And if you are a criminal, you will put yourself in trouble too, also for nothing, while you tried to protect yourself. This was the basis of Xkeyscore, and all of that to say that Signal is one very good signal that the person may be interesting.
        const_cast 1y ago
        1. I don't really think this is true generally. 2. Using a secure, but niche, service is still more secure than using a service with no privacy. Sure, you can argue using Signal puts a "target" on your back. But there's nothing to target, right? Because it's not being run by Google or Meta. What are they gonna take? There's no data to leak about you. If I were a criminal, which I'm not, I'd rather rob a bank with an actual gun than with a squirt gun. Even though having an actual gun puts a bigger target on your back. Because the actual gun works - the squirt gun is just kinda... useless.
        latentsea 1y ago
        >If I were a criminal, which I'm not, I'd rather rob a bank with an actual gun than with a squirt gun. Even though having an actual gun puts a bigger target on your back. Because the actual gun works - the squirt gun is just kinda... useless Actually, there was a case... I can't recall but it might have been in Argentina, where the robbers did explicitly use fake guns when robbing the banks because doing so still actually worked for the purposes of the robbery, and it also reduced their legal liability.
        bigprof 1y ago
        What flag does using a Casio watch raise? I have a G Shock that i love though i don't wear it as often nowadays.
  - throwaway83977 1y ago
    Any VPN worth its salt has gone through a security audit and/or is based in a sane country where that sort of thing is illegal.
- sejje 1y ago
  Or "I'm a power user" of sorts. Probably a very small minority of users fiddle that setting. Dang said a similarly small minority of users here do all the commenting.
  - Etheryte 1y ago
    This is true of practically every online community. The vast majority of the users are passive participants, a small fraction contribute, and a small subset of contributors generate most of the content. Reddit is a prime example of this, the numbers are incredibly lopsided there.
  - jodrellblank 1y ago
    See: “Most of What You Read on the Internet is Written by Insane People” https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most_of_what_you_read_on_the_internet_is_written/ https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most...
    - asimovDev 1y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18881827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18881827 HN discussion of that link for anyone curious
- qiine 1y ago
  almost as if it was a trap... ;p
viraptor 1y ago
That's assuming this is intended behaviour rather than just a bug that they don't care about fixing.
yard2010 1y ago
Occam's razor. Not Hanlon's.
ethan_smith 1y ago
It's a dark pattern called "placebo controls" - giving users the illusion of choice maintains positive sentiment while maximizing data collection, and avoids the PR hit of admitting telemetry is mandatory.

Telemetry toggles add noise to the data at the very least. IMO it's part of the reason you're actually better off with no client-side telemetry at all. Obviously they see it the opposite way.

imglorp 1y ago

Disabling telemetry might be interpreted as a self-indicated signal of "I have something to hide", so they jack up the snooping.

HPsquared 1y ago
I suspect many (or all) VPNs probably do secret logging. People will do their most interesting secret activities on those.
- rvnx 1y ago
  Like Signal users. The only thing it signals is that the user is interesting. There is also a reason why it is not allowed for classified use.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    This isn't true, this is the sort of toxic "if I have nothing to hide then why value privacy" ideology that got us into this privacy nightmare. Every single person has "something to hide", and that's normal. It's normal to not want your messages snooped through. It doesn't mean you're a criminal, or even computer-saavy.
    - rvnx 1y ago
      Mhhh it is not really about “nothing to hide”, it was more that if you use niche services targeted at privacy, it puts a big target on you. Like the Casio watches, travelling to Syria, using Tor, Protonmail, etc… When it is better in reality to have a regular watch, a Gmail with encrypted .zip files or whatever, etc. It does not mean you are a criminal if you have that Casio watch, but if you have this, plus encrypted emails, plus travel to some countries as a tourist, you are almost certain to put yourself in trouble for nothing, while you tried to protect yourself. And if you are a criminal, you will put yourself in trouble too, also for nothing, while you tried to protect yourself. This was the basis of Xkeyscore, and all of that to say that Signal is one very good signal that the person may be interesting.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        1. I don't really think this is true generally. 2. Using a secure, but niche, service is still more secure than using a service with no privacy. Sure, you can argue using Signal puts a "target" on your back. But there's nothing to target, right? Because it's not being run by Google or Meta. What are they gonna take? There's no data to leak about you. If I were a criminal, which I'm not, I'd rather rob a bank with an actual gun than with a squirt gun. Even though having an actual gun puts a bigger target on your back. Because the actual gun works - the squirt gun is just kinda... useless.
        latentsea 1y ago
        >If I were a criminal, which I'm not, I'd rather rob a bank with an actual gun than with a squirt gun. Even though having an actual gun puts a bigger target on your back. Because the actual gun works - the squirt gun is just kinda... useless Actually, there was a case... I can't recall but it might have been in Argentina, where the robbers did explicitly use fake guns when robbing the banks because doing so still actually worked for the purposes of the robbery, and it also reduced their legal liability.
      - bigprof 1y ago
        What flag does using a Casio watch raise? I have a G Shock that i love though i don't wear it as often nowadays.
- throwaway83977 1y ago
  Any VPN worth its salt has gone through a security audit and/or is based in a sane country where that sort of thing is illegal.
sejje 1y ago
Or "I'm a power user" of sorts. Probably a very small minority of users fiddle that setting. Dang said a similarly small minority of users here do all the commenting.
- Etheryte 1y ago
  This is true of practically every online community. The vast majority of the users are passive participants, a small fraction contribute, and a small subset of contributors generate most of the content. Reddit is a prime example of this, the numbers are incredibly lopsided there.
- jodrellblank 1y ago
  See: “Most of What You Read on the Internet is Written by Insane People” https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most_of_what_you_read_on_the_internet_is_written/ https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most...
  - asimovDev 1y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18881827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18881827 HN discussion of that link for anyone curious
qiine 1y ago
almost as if it was a trap... ;p

viraptor 1y ago

That's assuming this is intended behaviour rather than just a bug that they don't care about fixing.

yard2010 1y ago

Occam's razor. Not Hanlon's.

ethan_smith 1y ago

It's a dark pattern called "placebo controls" - giving users the illusion of choice maintains positive sentiment while maximizing data collection, and avoids the PR hit of admitting telemetry is mandatory.