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I think you might have to get more granular than: > people who genuinely enjoy the process of programming (regardless of when they started) I began programm

I think you might have to get more granular than: > people who genuinely enjoy the process of programming (regardless of when they started) I began programming at 9/10, and it's been one of only a few lifelong passions. But for me, the code itself was always just a means to an end. A tool you use to build something. I enjoy making things.

hakunin 1y ago
That's what I mean by product-building vs programming (3rd group).
jakelazaroff 1y ago
To me this is sort of like saying about music "The guitar was always just a means to an end. A tool you use to build something. I enjoy making things." That's true, but there's something qualitatively different about writing a song on a guitar vs. prompting to create a song in Suno. The guitar (or piano/Ableton/whatever) is an instrument, whereas Suno is… I'm not really sure. But that difference makes me totally disinterested in using Suno to produce music. And in the same way — even though I also consider code "just a means to an end" — I'm also totally disinterested in using Claude Code to produce software.
- gavinray 1y ago
  I'm probably in the minority here, but I also produce House music as a hobby and I love the idea of generative AI as a production tool. I paid $10 to try the latest Suno 4.5 model and one of the songs it produced was incredible (to me) and sounded so much like the music from my Pandora station I'd never have known it was AI. https://suno.com/s/EjiWqoG3iR6OYXQA https://suno.com/s/EjiWqoG3iR6OYXQA I'm excited for the future of "Infinite Personal Jukebox" where you can hear an endless stream of music tailored exactly to your taste, and never hear the same song twice.
  - jakelazaroff 1y ago
    I'm trying hard not to judge, but the "Infinite Personal Jukebox" sounds nightmarish to me — and I don't just mean to me, personally, but for humanity as a whole. You are describing a world in which music is devoid of any social context. No sharing songs with friends, no replaying the first song you danced to with a loved one, no seeing live performances, no researching who inspired your favorite artists — because in this world "inspiration" doesn't exist. Nothing will ever force you to reevaluate a genre you'd written off, or ponder tough questions — in fact, no media will ever challenge or surprise you in any way. That is a world in which one of our most primal connective threads has been robbed of its social and emotional value. It's just elevator music for our own private elevators.
    - Wowfunhappy 1y ago
      I'd posit Spotify already is an "infinite personal jukebox" for a lot of people. We can have both. People will still want that social context, and will go to concerts and so on. But not for every song.
      - jimbokun 1y ago
        Things are bad already so we should make them worse?
      - jakelazaroff 1y ago
        I mean, I agree with that, but then what is the problem for AI to solve here (other than Spotify needing to pay royalties to those pesky musicians)?
  - jimbokun 1y ago
    But with Suno YOU didn’t produce shit. Suno did.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      That is a distinction with a difference to you, but it may not be to them. They may not agree that they didn’t make the output, either. Most people don’t even tune their own pianos, let alone build them. I think you have a point, but it’s not likely to matter to those who don’t view the questions or the answers you’re raising as meaningful for a given situation and context. So even if they agree with you and make the content anyway because they like it or it’s profitable, where do you go from here, in your argument or outside of a hypothetical situation? I don’t see how you can put the genie back in the bottle.

hakunin 1y ago

That's what I mean by product-building vs programming (3rd group).

jakelazaroff 1y ago

To me this is sort of like saying about music "The guitar was always just a means to an end. A tool you use to build something. I enjoy making things." That's true, but there's something qualitatively different about writing a song on a guitar vs. prompting to create a song in Suno. The guitar (or piano/Ableton/whatever) is an instrument, whereas Suno is… I'm not really sure. But that difference makes me totally disinterested in using Suno to produce music. And in the same way — even though I also consider code "just a means to an end" — I'm also totally disinterested in using Claude Code to produce software.

gavinray 1y ago
I'm probably in the minority here, but I also produce House music as a hobby and I love the idea of generative AI as a production tool. I paid $10 to try the latest Suno 4.5 model and one of the songs it produced was incredible (to me) and sounded so much like the music from my Pandora station I'd never have known it was AI. https://suno.com/s/EjiWqoG3iR6OYXQA https://suno.com/s/EjiWqoG3iR6OYXQA I'm excited for the future of "Infinite Personal Jukebox" where you can hear an endless stream of music tailored exactly to your taste, and never hear the same song twice.
- jakelazaroff 1y ago
  I'm trying hard not to judge, but the "Infinite Personal Jukebox" sounds nightmarish to me — and I don't just mean to me, personally, but for humanity as a whole. You are describing a world in which music is devoid of any social context. No sharing songs with friends, no replaying the first song you danced to with a loved one, no seeing live performances, no researching who inspired your favorite artists — because in this world "inspiration" doesn't exist. Nothing will ever force you to reevaluate a genre you'd written off, or ponder tough questions — in fact, no media will ever challenge or surprise you in any way. That is a world in which one of our most primal connective threads has been robbed of its social and emotional value. It's just elevator music for our own private elevators.
  - Wowfunhappy 1y ago
    I'd posit Spotify already is an "infinite personal jukebox" for a lot of people. We can have both. People will still want that social context, and will go to concerts and so on. But not for every song.
    - jimbokun 1y ago
      Things are bad already so we should make them worse?
    - jakelazaroff 1y ago
      I mean, I agree with that, but then what is the problem for AI to solve here (other than Spotify needing to pay royalties to those pesky musicians)?
- jimbokun 1y ago
  But with Suno YOU didn’t produce shit. Suno did.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    That is a distinction with a difference to you, but it may not be to them. They may not agree that they didn’t make the output, either. Most people don’t even tune their own pianos, let alone build them. I think you have a point, but it’s not likely to matter to those who don’t view the questions or the answers you’re raising as meaningful for a given situation and context. So even if they agree with you and make the content anyway because they like it or it’s profitable, where do you go from here, in your argument or outside of a hypothetical situation? I don’t see how you can put the genie back in the bottle.