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I’m trying to think how I feel about this. I’ve been obsessed with space for a long time, remember traveling to see my first rocket launch of the shuttle in 200
by eagerpace 1y ago
I’m trying to think how I feel about this. I’ve been obsessed with space for a long time, remember traveling to see my first rocket launch of the shuttle in 2006. Follow the commercial development closely since then. Their science missions are inspiring, but not as inspiring as they ought to be.
NASA needs an overhaul. This isn’t how I would do it, but that’s not how things work in the real world. SLS is the elephant in the room and is a complete disaster. It’s a jobs program limping along decades old technology when the commercial options are better. You can debate some of the specifics, sure, but if all this current state of uncertainty brings is a clean slate and new ways of thinking in 4 years, that’s better IMHO than looking back 4 years from now watching NASA brute force a token moon landing on the back of ancient technology. Which they may still do!
- reactordev 1y agoAnytime you have subcontractors of the subcontractor of the prime contract holder, you’re going to get construction projects that go 20 years. It’s totally a jobs program. Job security and predictable pay outs. The entire space coast of Florida was built on this, from Kennedy Space Center down to Jupiter, FL.
- eagerpace 1y agoBeyond FL, they’re careful to make sure parts of the rocket at built in EVERY state! Now something that should be cutting edge innovation is tied to Congress which is intentionally not innovative and you wonder why it falls behind.
- rtkwe 1y agoThere's that but also NASA gets continually screwed with, the moon return mission changed scope every 8 or so years when a new president came in and wanted to put their own stamp on the project to claim it for themselves.
- zevets 1y agoIt's slightly less cynical than that - it takes about eight years to design a space mission and rocket, but doing the detailed design is expensive as hell, so in order to meet a budget, they then change the mission, so they can go back to the vastly more affordable task of talking about doing work, vs doing work
- mschuster91 1y agoEven if it would work out to distribute the pork across the continent, the fact is that all this splitting introduces logistical cost (shipping) as well as development costs (red tape needed to approve any change). SpaceX doesn't have any of that crap, and Tesla (with its famous ditching of the old school "auto makers and parts suppliers" ecosystem) either.
- reactordev 1y agoOne of the stipulations for SpaceX to even have contracts was they had to support the space coast. They do. Launches from Kennedy are frequent and the drone platform the rockets land on are stationed there. SpaceX is the new NASA and like you said, they don’t have the red tape of having to justify parts manufacturing across the states. The sad reality is in the US, too many towns were built around a very specific and niche business. Coal in the Appalachian mountains, NASA and the space coast, Pittsburgh Steel… it’s a community plan that failed and yet is still being used today. Woe to those that move/live there.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- orbisvicis 1y agoIf only you could offer congress deferred resignations...
- arccy 1y agoisn't congress on fixed time contracts already....
- cosmicgadget 1y agoNo one would take it since the stock (trading on proprietary info) plan is so good.
- justin66 1y ago> NASA needs an overhaul. This isn’t how I would do it, but that’s not how things work in the real world. SLS is the elephant in the room and is a complete disaster. It’s a jobs program limping along decades old technology when the commercial options are better. It’s more accurate to say that Congress needs an overhaul. Over the years NASA administrators have pushed back on SLS to the fullest extent you’d expect, but it’s not their call how Congress allocates money. Losing career managers, scientists and engineers isn’t going to fix any of the things you want to see fixed.
- toomuchtodo 1y agoIt’s going to kill institutional knowledge and be so expensive to repair after regime change.
- jajko 1y ago[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 1y agoI'm confident in high volatility forward looking, but not confident democracy is dead (yet).
- segmondy 1y agoYou are not wrong. I hold the exact same sentiment. The world is way more optimistic than us.
- biggc 1y ago2021, not 2020
- BoxFour 1y agoThat point might hold more weight if we were talking about someone decades younger, but he’s 80 and hasn’t exactly lived a healthful life. As far as I know, no one’s managed to beat father time yet. Transitions of power in movements built around a cult of personality rarely keep the same momentum. There are a few exceptions, but in most of those the clear successor had their own charisma. That doesn’t appear to be the case here.
- jordanb 1y ago> SLS is the elephant in the room and is a complete disaster SLS isn't great but it does.. you know.. work.
- belter 1y agoExcept for the under powered orbits but that is a whole other issue. https://youtu.be/XFIvKSVRtZ0 https://youtu.be/XFIvKSVRtZ0 https://youtu.be/sGT-8PHSVso https://youtu.be/sGT-8PHSVso
- jordanb 1y agoWhile it's hard to get the truth out of SpaceX but there's reliable evidence that the block one starship wasn't anywhere near its mass to orbit projections which is why they rushed the block two design which stopped their progress practically cold.
- eagerpace 1y agoDoes it? Do we want to repeat what we did 50 years ago or do we want to do something better and stay this time?
- jordanb 1y ago"Meet your mission objectives on the first try" is a pretty reasonable - if low-bar - definition of "works".
- chadcmulligan 1y agoI read this recently, and it doesn't sound good https://idlewords.com/2024/05/the_lunacy_of_artemis.htm https://idlewords.com/2024/05/the_lunacy_of_artemis.htm
- brandmeyer 1y agoAny argument that is filled with this much ragebait should be dismissed out of hand.
- NooneAtAll3 1y agoSLS is elephant in the room - but Mars Sample Return is arguably even worse Money for SLS is separate part of the budget, its mismanagement causes reputational damage - MSR budget is part of NASA probe budget, mismanagement there causes stall, worse performances and cancellations for AWFUL amount of other projects
- lupusreal 1y agoMSR has indeed been a mess. I think it's pretty obvious that NASA has been trying to instill a "sunk costs" mentality in Congress, and it's not working out the way they wanted. MSR is a fine enough concept though, I think Rocket Lab's proposal to get it done is sound and the government should take them up on the offer. If nothing else, the money to Rocket Lab for MSR development would help to make Rocket Lab a more viable SpaceX competitor, which should pay off for the US government in the long run.
- ACCount36 1y agoMSR as NASA's JPL envisioned it was a disaster. But there was a chance that someone like Rocket Lab could actually make it work without breaking the bank.
- parasense 1y agoThe SLS was a good idea, and it's actually a great rocket. However you are correct in saying it turned into a huge program for the old school rocket industrial complex. I think the private sector currently does this better, or it's certainly debatable. However, I think it's a mistake to say only the private sector can do this kind of thing optimally. There is some multiverse in the timelines where government contractors create an industrial rocket production line that quickly and cheaply stamps out heavy lift rockets. Granted, it's easier said than done, but it still doesn't have to be so expensive. Clearly the expensive part should be the R&D with the industrial production parts being jigged, automated, and fully optimized. The SLS obviously went another route by making the rocket production bespoke with non optimal, manual labor, etc... that kind of protection is acceptable for one-off science mission payloads, but not heavy lift.... Anyhoo, NASA letting so many people resign is good if your opinion is such that lowering government expenditure is a good thing. So long as the exit package is comparable to retirement package these government employees would have got otherwise. My guess is the resignation package has great near term performance but low long term (retirement) performance, making it a great option for younger workers able to pivot to new careers.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- jebarker 1y ago> Their science missions are inspiring, but not as inspiring as they ought to be Are they 1% as inspiring as what the DoD does with their budget? I don't mean to be snarky, but level of inspiration is pretty subjective and difficult to put a price tag on. Honestly, I feel like the NASA budget needs to be considered in context relative to the DoD budget and then these cuts look much less convincing as being necessary.
- giantg2 1y ago"Are they 1% as inspiring as what the DoD does with their budget?" It would be closer to 2%, but we could measure it by engagement. Ask people what their last positive interaction was with NASA vs the military. The military does all sorts of outreach with things like the Blue Angels, stadium flyovers, competitions at fairs, etc. Ask them what NASA has done over the past year vs what the military has done over the past year. Chances are many people couldn't name something NASA achieved in the past year. Would it be at the 2% number? I don't know. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I think both should look for budget inefficiency, but until those are identified I wouldn't propose budget cuts. But it does seem that the NASA missions could be more inspiring recently.
- scottoreily 1y ago[dead]
- camcil 1y agoI worked as a civil servant for a decade and a half in various capacities up until a couple of weeks ago. I'm the last person that would tell you that there isn't plenty of fat that could be trimmed. Slicing at random, multiple delayed resignation opportunities, and threatening cuts to benefits, however, is doing the opposite. Those that are skilled enough and in demand, or like me lucky enough, to quickly find other employ, are the ones that are going to leave- leaving behind nothing but the fat.
- ACCount36 1y agoPeople who should be fired are the very people who would be the best at justifying why they shouldn't be fired. Not at all by a coincidence. "Slicing at random" could actually outperform most other methods, as long as it's truly random. You can weasel your way out of a firing based on vibes or performance reviews - but you can't convince an RNG that its roll was wrong.
- mulmen 1y agoSlicing at random would leave the same ratio of worker types. Random slices have the potential to cause enormous damage by removing critical contributors while also creating exploitable power vacuums. The actual solution is to just continue operating the way NASA has been operating because it's not actually a problem.
- ACCount36 1y agoNot actually a problem? Have you seen what NASA is doing lately? SLS. Orion. Gateway. Ambitionless Artemis. JPL's disaster of an MSR proposal. NASA reeks of rot and decay. It's not in a good place, and hasn't been in a long time now. If you "just continue operating", it's only going to get worse.
- mulmen 1y agoSLS is Congress, not NASA. The core mission of NASA is space exploration and their achievements in that domain are unparalleled. Randomly firing and cutting funding isn’t a solution. Especially not to a perceived problem. If you think the spending is excessive you have to do the hard work of explaining why and then the even harder work of fixing it. If that seems too hard then yeah, it’s fine.
- Aurornis 1y ago> It’s a jobs program limping along decades old technology when the commercial options are better. I’ve worked with a few former NASA employees now. They all said the same thing: There were some amazing, passionate people at NASA but they were all surrounded by people who were only there to attend meetings and collect paychecks. Getting anything done was impossible because you had to navigate webs of org structure and process that had been designed to make work and jobs for people, not to deliver results. My one ex-NASA coworker got a lot of mileage out of telling people he worked for NASA, putting it on his LinkedIn, and mentioning it when he introduced himself to new people. People respect the name. It was a stark contrast to how he described his actual time there.
- aerostable_slug 1y agoI share your experience. The national labs are also a lot like this.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> There were some amazing, passionate people at NASA but they were all surrounded by people who were only there to attend meetings and collect paychecks Which do you think takes a severance package?
- Yeul 1y agoIt depends on what you want out of the space program. Americans seem to expect lots of flag waving and spaceships. Less fundamental science.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago> but if all this current state of uncertainty brings is a clean slate and new ways of thinking in 4 years, that’s better IMHO Isn't the greater likelihood that delivery of service will drop as a result of the cuts and they'll point to this to justify nullifying the entire programme?
- eagerpace 1y agoI hesitated posting this because my very moderate east coast American perspective seems to be appreciated less and less here. I posted this on a lazy Sunday morning and it got a lot of positive initial comments and discussion. Then a few hours later it turned negative. Science is great but launch vehicle innovation is where the problem is so that’s why I focused on SLS. We could easily have 100 JWSTs today if something like starship were operational. NASA dragging its feet for decades, building silly things likes SLS, trying to find token uses to justify it, doesn’t inspire me anymore.
- cma 1y agoCan you expand on what you mean by token uses? Wasn't Saturn V used for golf on the moon?
- BobbyJo 1y agoPutting the first people on the moon, the first people on any foreign celestial body, as a show of power during the cold war isn't what I'd consider "token". Putting people on the moon today is a lot less substantive, and doing it with decades old technology makes it even less so. I see the correlation you're trying to draw: "neither is of any practical use", but I think even that ignores the very deliberate effects the first space race had on the USSR.
- eagerpace 1y agoI’m speaking of SLS. It’s a solution in search of a problem.
- spauldo 1y agoSLS is a solution for the problem of the US needing a large launch vehicle. That's not the issue. The issue is that it's taken way more time and money than anticipated and hasn't shown good results. Budget and schedule overruns are expected with any large project - it's just the nature of contracting. But there are limits, and SLS blew past them quite a while ago. I'm not sure how much of it is NASA's fault given how much congressional meddling has gone on, though.
- EasyMark 1y agoNASA like most government agencies could use a good, independent audit. That's not what this is. The DOGE lie was all about going in with pre-determined goals to reduce and to embarrass every org that they "audited". It was to "prove" MAGA world's criticism even if they were completely wrong (and the vast majority are). MAGA world "leaders" think that the US's role as a lead in science and top universities needs to be damaged in order to reduce our role in the world. It can then attempt to repair it with private tech billionaire solutions that are under their 100% control, instead of having to deal with government between them and profits.
- singron 1y agoAre NASA employees even a significant part of SLS? Doesn't the bulk of the money go to Boeing and Northrup Grumman?
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago> Their science missions are inspiring, but not as inspiring as they ought to be. NASA's science missions have been incredible. The James Webb Space Telescope, a 6.5-meter-diameter infrared telescope at Lagrange Point 2 that can measure the atmospheric chemistry of planets orbiting other stars and measure the spectra of galaxies that were around 10 billion years ago. The Curiosity rover landed on Mars by being lowered to the ground from a rocket-powered "sky-crane." It was powered by a radioactive battery, has been driving around and taking measurements for more than a decade, and has shown that Mars was likely habitable billions of years ago. What kind of inspiration do you feel is lacking there?
- amy_petrik 1y ago[flagged]