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They could easily get more public support if they pushed this as a seismic retrofit initiative rather than continue to gaslight the public and doubling down on

They could easily get more public support if they pushed this as a seismic retrofit initiative rather than continue to gaslight the public and doubling down on their environmental foolishness. A direct-vent natural gas-fired water heater is probably the simplest, most reliable appliance you could own. It requires no electricity. And now bureaucrats (not plumbers) made them illegal. SF is probably the only place in the country where this makes sense, solely because of the earthquake problem. (Do you know how to shut off your gas meter in an emergency? Probably not.) Yet same people who insist hopscotching amongst piles of human feces is part and parcel to living in the city, not the public health hazard it is, want you to believe your gas stove is killing you. As a wok owner, I'll take that chance.

tlogan 1y ago
I’m not sure where you live, but in my case, I wasn’t even able to get home insurance without an automatic gas shutoff valve. Our policy also required an automatic shutoff for water. So in that sense, earthquake safety is already being addressed through insurance requirements. Ultimately, mandates like this just make housing even more expensive. Which, frankly, seems to be the real goal. God forbid home prices actually decline or even stop rising.
- pengaru 1y ago
  That's not really sufficient for seismically active regions like the SF bay area. The mains are more likely to develop leaks from the frequent tremors and no amount of at-home shutoff valves will change that. If you allow new construction dependent on existing natural gas distribution lines, they increase the pressure to accommodate the increased demand. This makes explosions from pipes leaking/catastrophically failing more likely. I thought it was obvious the long-term goal was to reduce if not completely eliminate the need for natural gas distribution _especially_ in these regions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion
mcswell 1y ago
"A direct-vent natural gas-fired water heater is probably the simplest, most reliable appliance you could own. It requires no electricity." I won't address the legality issue, but: First, I'm not sure about the no electricity; if the heater has a pilot light, then I suppose no, but otherwise it requires electricity at least for the igniter. Second, you're missing another reason for getting a heat pump water heater. We just last week replaced our 13 year old (and therefore on its end of life) gas heater with a heat pump water heater. It requires no gas :). One reason for doing that is that using electricity to run a small heat pump is far cheaper where we live than gas. (We have solar panels, which makes it still cheaper--in fact, free.) The only things remaining in our house that use gas are the stove and a gas log fireplace. We've used the latter twice during the 13 years we've lived in the house. If we replace the stove (which we'll need to do some day, it's almost 25 years old) with an electric one, then I'd be easily persuaded to turn off the gas fireplace, and end the delivery charge on gas. As an electric appliance owner, I'll take that chance.
- thehappypm 1y ago
  I had a hybrid electric heat pump water heater, and I didn’t like that it made my house cold in the winter. In winter I’d switch to purely resistive mode. Later on, I moved into a house with a gas water heater and at least for me the gas operating cost is lower.
  - viraptor 1y ago
    What do you mean it made your house cold? Did you place it inside the house?
    - thehappypm 1y ago
      Yes, everyone has it in their house in cold climates you’d be crazy to have it somewhere not climate controlled
      - viraptor 1y ago
        Ok. I was confused because mine's in a service room, attached to the house and enclosed, but now open to the house air.
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
There are induction heated woks in more civilized countries. But again, in the US you're fucked with the third-worldian 120Volts.
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  Cookers run on 240 Volts in the US.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
    Only if they have fixed wiring, or specially wired sockets with the according plugs going into them. I should know, because I had my house partially remodeled, including ripping gas pipes out of living-, kitchen-, and bathing rooms. To be replaced by that. That may be different for professional gastronomic equipment, but I have no experience with that. I think a pizza-oven or larger cooking range could have some sort of thick CEE-plug/coupling like you sometimes see on construction sites. In Germany that fixed wiring for stoves was/is at 380/400Volts. Since this was about a Wok initially, I assumed mobility and no fixed installation. Why this matters in daily life(If you don't want to have gas anymore), everything takes longer to heat(with standard mains electricity), even boiling water for brewing coffee or tea in the US. Leading to such strange contraptions like induction cooking tops with integrated Liion-battery, to at least be able to compensate for a while for the lack of oomph. This isn't necessary, or the case in Germany.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  The us is on 240v, but it’s split phase. Even from a 120V you can get a 1300W induction plate that will transfer heat faster than all but the biggest range burners.

tlogan 1y ago

I’m not sure where you live, but in my case, I wasn’t even able to get home insurance without an automatic gas shutoff valve. Our policy also required an automatic shutoff for water. So in that sense, earthquake safety is already being addressed through insurance requirements. Ultimately, mandates like this just make housing even more expensive. Which, frankly, seems to be the real goal. God forbid home prices actually decline or even stop rising.

pengaru 1y ago
That's not really sufficient for seismically active regions like the SF bay area. The mains are more likely to develop leaks from the frequent tremors and no amount of at-home shutoff valves will change that. If you allow new construction dependent on existing natural gas distribution lines, they increase the pressure to accommodate the increased demand. This makes explosions from pipes leaking/catastrophically failing more likely. I thought it was obvious the long-term goal was to reduce if not completely eliminate the need for natural gas distribution _especially_ in these regions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

mcswell 1y ago

"A direct-vent natural gas-fired water heater is probably the simplest, most reliable appliance you could own. It requires no electricity." I won't address the legality issue, but: First, I'm not sure about the no electricity; if the heater has a pilot light, then I suppose no, but otherwise it requires electricity at least for the igniter. Second, you're missing another reason for getting a heat pump water heater. We just last week replaced our 13 year old (and therefore on its end of life) gas heater with a heat pump water heater. It requires no gas :). One reason for doing that is that using electricity to run a small heat pump is far cheaper where we live than gas. (We have solar panels, which makes it still cheaper--in fact, free.) The only things remaining in our house that use gas are the stove and a gas log fireplace. We've used the latter twice during the 13 years we've lived in the house. If we replace the stove (which we'll need to do some day, it's almost 25 years old) with an electric one, then I'd be easily persuaded to turn off the gas fireplace, and end the delivery charge on gas. As an electric appliance owner, I'll take that chance.

thehappypm 1y ago
I had a hybrid electric heat pump water heater, and I didn’t like that it made my house cold in the winter. In winter I’d switch to purely resistive mode. Later on, I moved into a house with a gas water heater and at least for me the gas operating cost is lower.
- viraptor 1y ago
  What do you mean it made your house cold? Did you place it inside the house?
  - thehappypm 1y ago
    Yes, everyone has it in their house in cold climates you’d be crazy to have it somewhere not climate controlled
    - viraptor 1y ago
      Ok. I was confused because mine's in a service room, attached to the house and enclosed, but now open to the house air.

LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago

There are induction heated woks in more civilized countries. But again, in the US you're fucked with the third-worldian 120Volts.

sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
Cookers run on 240 Volts in the US.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  Only if they have fixed wiring, or specially wired sockets with the according plugs going into them. I should know, because I had my house partially remodeled, including ripping gas pipes out of living-, kitchen-, and bathing rooms. To be replaced by that. That may be different for professional gastronomic equipment, but I have no experience with that. I think a pizza-oven or larger cooking range could have some sort of thick CEE-plug/coupling like you sometimes see on construction sites. In Germany that fixed wiring for stoves was/is at 380/400Volts. Since this was about a Wok initially, I assumed mobility and no fixed installation. Why this matters in daily life(If you don't want to have gas anymore), everything takes longer to heat(with standard mains electricity), even boiling water for brewing coffee or tea in the US. Leading to such strange contraptions like induction cooking tops with integrated Liion-battery, to at least be able to compensate for a while for the lack of oomph. This isn't necessary, or the case in Germany.
_aavaa_ 1y ago
The us is on 240v, but it’s split phase. Even from a 120V you can get a 1300W induction plate that will transfer heat faster than all but the biggest range burners.