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> For efficiency improvements to create more leisure time or even more wealth (for the bottom 50%), society would need to be radically restructured so that its

> For efficiency improvements to create more leisure time or even more wealth (for the bottom 50%), society would need to be radically restructured so that its locus of control is not capital. And even then, even a small percentage of bad actors who are selfish would likely restructure it back due to technology enabling them to do so! The fact is, the elite at the top is a steady state that is hard to leave if you worship efficiency. Only the Amish and some native tribes have realized that the only way out is not to play.

MichaelZuo 1y ago
This seems circular… capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy, and will likely betray any trust or faith placed in them if put under enough pressure. So society has to depend on something fully independent of any specific person or group and that cannot be changed without leaving behind a long papertrail. In other words nobody dreams of becoming a banker/accountant/auditor/etc. at 5 year old. Probably even double entry bookkeeping would be superfluous if everyone were virtuous paragons.
- vouaobrasil 1y ago
  > This seems circular… capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy, and will likely betray any trust or faith placed in them if put under enough pressure. True, but it's also mainly because we have a society that is based on technological innovation with rapid transportation/communication. I was only responding to the other reply that seemed to imply that there was an alternative restructuring that puts less capital at the top.
- pydry 1y ago
  >capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy Not really. It became that way because wealth begets power. The narrative it tells us is that we should be terrified to change this because nobody else except the owners of capital can be trusted as stewards of our economy and political system (particularly not "government").
  - MichaelZuo 1y ago
    It certainly seems functional more than narrative… a long papertrail is physically costly to fake.
    - pydry 1y ago
      Try comparing Chinese and western industrial capacities. Ours is a joke compared to theirs and we started off richer. The primary difference is that their government allocates capital. Wasteful, indeed.

MichaelZuo 1y ago

This seems circular… capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy, and will likely betray any trust or faith placed in them if put under enough pressure. So society has to depend on something fully independent of any specific person or group and that cannot be changed without leaving behind a long papertrail. In other words nobody dreams of becoming a banker/accountant/auditor/etc. at 5 year old. Probably even double entry bookkeeping would be superfluous if everyone were virtuous paragons.

vouaobrasil 1y ago
> This seems circular… capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy, and will likely betray any trust or faith placed in them if put under enough pressure. True, but it's also mainly because we have a society that is based on technological innovation with rapid transportation/communication. I was only responding to the other reply that seemed to imply that there was an alternative restructuring that puts less capital at the top.
pydry 1y ago
>capital has become such an important gatekeeper in society in the first place because most people aren’t that trustworthy Not really. It became that way because wealth begets power. The narrative it tells us is that we should be terrified to change this because nobody else except the owners of capital can be trusted as stewards of our economy and political system (particularly not "government").
- MichaelZuo 1y ago
  It certainly seems functional more than narrative… a long papertrail is physically costly to fake.
  - pydry 1y ago
    Try comparing Chinese and western industrial capacities. Ours is a joke compared to theirs and we started off richer. The primary difference is that their government allocates capital. Wasteful, indeed.