6 ms·

It's also leads to racism when people break down relationship violence by race. It's a dumb argument that helps no one

cauch 1y ago
I think the problem is not the statement, but the conclusion. Do we have more physical violence from men towards women than the opposite? I think I saw that the reality is yes. Does it mean that men are biologically coded to be violent, or is it a question of education and culture? If you conclude the second one, it is not "sexist" (on the contrary, it may even be that the culture that creates the problem is itself rooted in sexism and that acknowledging some reality about its existence may help changing this culture), and does not imply prejudice against men, just acknowledging that we need to be careful in case of bad apples. It still means that talking about this requires to be very careful. To react on your example, I think it is a good think to notice if some population have a bigger problem at this subject than others, and we can then identify more easily the places where this problem forms and target these places. But people who concludes "look at violence divided by race, so I can generalise and be prejudicial to everyone in some race and not other" are idiots.
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women
  - exiguus 1y ago
    The context was a dating app. And yes, men are also victims by men.
  - standardUser 1y ago
    Yes, primarily by other men as we all know.
  - cindyllm 1y ago
    [dead]
  - cauch 1y ago
    Not sure what is your point? It feels a bit like saying "there is a bug in software X, but there is also a bug in software Y, so let's not fix the bug in software X". Of course, men also suffer from problems. It even feels that it is usually also due to machismo or something similar. Sometimes, it feels like the majority of men's problem is in fact self-inflicted by the manosphere. They both complain of suicide rate, army draft, violence against men, but they also promote a culture of not-showing-emotion-otherwise-you-are-not-manly, a-man-is-worthless-if-they-dont-succeed, army-is-manly-and-women-are-weak, a-man-should-show-dominence-and-other-men-are-a-threath, ... People likes to see things in black or white, but the reality is more complicated, and there is no advantages that does not bring also some disadvantages.
- belorn 1y ago
  The statistics is a bit more complex and nuanced than giving straight answers. Studies looking at any form of violence in partner relationships shows both women and men having equal amount. When looking at physical violence, especially those that lead to people being charged with a crime, men are over-represented in heterosexual relationships. However, homosexual relationships has equal rate of partner violence as heterosexual ones. A bisexual woman that has a relationship with an other woman will double her rate of physical violence compare to relationship with a man (statically). A man who has a relationship with an other man will half his rate of violence. This makes no sense at all (unless we believe that sexual orientation is an factor for violent behavior), unless we add a additional factor of sexual dimorphism. Men are on average larger and more muscular, and there seems to be a correlation between being the larger/stronger and using physical strength/fists during a fight. The smaller person is in return more likely to use tools or other means of violence. Statistically, fist also has a higher probability to do damage than improvised weapons, since people are more proficient in using their fists. Does it mean men are biologically coded to be violent? No. Is it a question about education and culture. Maybe in some countries/cultures, and it wouldn't hurt to use the education system to teach people conflict resolution. Getting people who are physically larger to not exploit that fact during a heated fight is likely a hard problem to solve on a population level.
  - cauch 1y ago
    Not sure what is your point. I think "any form of violence" is not a constructive direction. First, this ends up being very subjective: between 2 forms of psychological violence, which one is the most violent? Secondly, if indeed it is cultural, it implies that different sub-culture may have different ways of acting, so we can always play the subgroups to make it says whatever we want. But most importantly, it is not very relevant for our context: in the case of the first interactions during heterosexual dating, pretending that men risk as much as women seems a very unconvincing claim, for several reasons (even if under-represented it should be under-represented to an unrealistic level to reach an equal level, and it also does not fit with plenty of cultural tropes (I can find a video explaining explicitly that manly men need to dominate their female partner. I'm sure it exists, but the simple fact that I cannot easily find a video explaining explicitly that womenly women need to dominate their male partner shows it's not that of a trope. On the other hand, I can also easily find videos about "trad wife" that will explain that a womenly woman must be with a dominating man)) For the rest, I think we say the same thing: talking about the visible issues is not a problem in itself, but people instrumentalising these issues to be racist or sexist are the problem.
exiguus 1y ago
The risk of females being murdered by an intimate partner is five times higher than for males. And murder is just the very end of the spectrum. And by definition, calling out men, is not racism.
- Rebelgecko 1y ago
  Are there other groups that are 5x more likely to commit murder? Even if there are, IMO we shouldn't judge every member of that group for the actions of a small minority
  - exiguus 1y ago
    Are we still talking about a App that helps with dating?
  - standardUser 1y ago
    [flagged]
standardUser 1y ago
Race is America is extremely idiosyncratic. Gender relations exhibit a far more consistent dynamic cross-culturally.
- octopoc 1y ago
  Calling it "extremely idiosyncratic" is not indicative of reality: > Black people are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanic people and White people.2 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The national intimate partner and sexual violence survey: 2010-2012 state report. > Asian people are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.[1] [1] https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-ethnicity-62648 https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-eth...
  - standardUser 1y ago
    You misunderstood my comment and instead gave examples that further support the idea that race relations in America are unique and particular to our history and geography. That's why race statistics in the US are not well-suited for cross-cultural comparison, let alone for drawing gargantuan conclusions about inherent racial traits (as racists are often looking to do).

I think the problem is not the statement, but the conclusion. Do we have more physical violence from men towards women than the opposite? I think I saw that the reality is yes. Does it mean that men are biologically coded to be violent, or is it a question of education and culture? If you conclude the second one, it is not "sexist" (on the contrary, it may even be that the culture that creates the problem is itself rooted in sexism and that acknowledging some reality about its existence may help changing this culture), and does not imply prejudice against men, just acknowledging that we need to be careful in case of bad apples. It still means that talking about this requires to be very careful. To react on your example, I think it is a good think to notice if some population have a bigger problem at this subject than others, and we can then identify more easily the places where this problem forms and target these places. But people who concludes "look at violence divided by race, so I can generalise and be prejudicial to everyone in some race and not other" are idiots.

hdgvhicv 1y ago
Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women
- exiguus 1y ago
  The context was a dating app. And yes, men are also victims by men.
- standardUser 1y ago
  Yes, primarily by other men as we all know.
- cindyllm 1y ago
  [dead]
- cauch 1y ago
  Not sure what is your point? It feels a bit like saying "there is a bug in software X, but there is also a bug in software Y, so let's not fix the bug in software X". Of course, men also suffer from problems. It even feels that it is usually also due to machismo or something similar. Sometimes, it feels like the majority of men's problem is in fact self-inflicted by the manosphere. They both complain of suicide rate, army draft, violence against men, but they also promote a culture of not-showing-emotion-otherwise-you-are-not-manly, a-man-is-worthless-if-they-dont-succeed, army-is-manly-and-women-are-weak, a-man-should-show-dominence-and-other-men-are-a-threath, ... People likes to see things in black or white, but the reality is more complicated, and there is no advantages that does not bring also some disadvantages.
belorn 1y ago
The statistics is a bit more complex and nuanced than giving straight answers. Studies looking at any form of violence in partner relationships shows both women and men having equal amount. When looking at physical violence, especially those that lead to people being charged with a crime, men are over-represented in heterosexual relationships. However, homosexual relationships has equal rate of partner violence as heterosexual ones. A bisexual woman that has a relationship with an other woman will double her rate of physical violence compare to relationship with a man (statically). A man who has a relationship with an other man will half his rate of violence. This makes no sense at all (unless we believe that sexual orientation is an factor for violent behavior), unless we add a additional factor of sexual dimorphism. Men are on average larger and more muscular, and there seems to be a correlation between being the larger/stronger and using physical strength/fists during a fight. The smaller person is in return more likely to use tools or other means of violence. Statistically, fist also has a higher probability to do damage than improvised weapons, since people are more proficient in using their fists. Does it mean men are biologically coded to be violent? No. Is it a question about education and culture. Maybe in some countries/cultures, and it wouldn't hurt to use the education system to teach people conflict resolution. Getting people who are physically larger to not exploit that fact during a heated fight is likely a hard problem to solve on a population level.
- cauch 1y ago
  Not sure what is your point. I think "any form of violence" is not a constructive direction. First, this ends up being very subjective: between 2 forms of psychological violence, which one is the most violent? Secondly, if indeed it is cultural, it implies that different sub-culture may have different ways of acting, so we can always play the subgroups to make it says whatever we want. But most importantly, it is not very relevant for our context: in the case of the first interactions during heterosexual dating, pretending that men risk as much as women seems a very unconvincing claim, for several reasons (even if under-represented it should be under-represented to an unrealistic level to reach an equal level, and it also does not fit with plenty of cultural tropes (I can find a video explaining explicitly that manly men need to dominate their female partner. I'm sure it exists, but the simple fact that I cannot easily find a video explaining explicitly that womenly women need to dominate their male partner shows it's not that of a trope. On the other hand, I can also easily find videos about "trad wife" that will explain that a womenly woman must be with a dominating man)) For the rest, I think we say the same thing: talking about the visible issues is not a problem in itself, but people instrumentalising these issues to be racist or sexist are the problem.

exiguus 1y ago

The risk of females being murdered by an intimate partner is five times higher than for males. And murder is just the very end of the spectrum. And by definition, calling out men, is not racism.

Rebelgecko 1y ago
Are there other groups that are 5x more likely to commit murder? Even if there are, IMO we shouldn't judge every member of that group for the actions of a small minority
- exiguus 1y ago
  Are we still talking about a App that helps with dating?
- standardUser 1y ago
  [flagged]

standardUser 1y ago

Race is America is extremely idiosyncratic. Gender relations exhibit a far more consistent dynamic cross-culturally.

octopoc 1y ago
Calling it "extremely idiosyncratic" is not indicative of reality: > Black people are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanic people and White people.2 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The national intimate partner and sexual violence survey: 2010-2012 state report. > Asian people are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.[1] [1] https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-ethnicity-62648 https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-eth...
- standardUser 1y ago
  You misunderstood my comment and instead gave examples that further support the idea that race relations in America are unique and particular to our history and geography. That's why race statistics in the US are not well-suited for cross-cultural comparison, let alone for drawing gargantuan conclusions about inherent racial traits (as racists are often looking to do).