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I agree completely that they align with the religious right in this aspect, but you can't pretend that sex-negativity isn't a huge school of thought in feminism

I agree completely that they align with the religious right in this aspect, but you can't pretend that sex-negativity isn't a huge school of thought in feminism. Vague calls to "stop the sexualization of women in media (aimed at hetrosexual men)" have been a huge part of the casual feminist suite of views for at least a decade.

sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
It's interesting that you equate opposition to sexualization of women in media with sex negativity. One does not necessarily imply the other. You can be sex positive and believe that media sexualizes women to a problematic degree.
- some_random 1y ago
  There's a reason I wrote "casual feminist suite of views" because while they two are very closely linked they are indeed separate.
- Dweller1622 1y ago
  Can you give me an example of this? As far as I understand it sex positivity doesn't seem to be concerned with "media sexualizing women" in and of itself. Consequently I'm not sure what "media [that] sexualizes women to a problematic degree" is or would even look like.
  - nosignono 1y ago
    It has to do with agency, primarily. Is the character in the media given the agency and depth necessary to support their sexual appetites? Or are they treated like an object by the camera, a 2 dimensional cutout whose purpose is only to be an object. Compare, for example, Sex and the City, where 4 women were regularly engaged in a variety of sexual encounters and say, background dancers in a music video or advert that exist to appeal as objects to a male audience.
    - Dweller1622 1y ago
      I've definitely seen people say it's about agency, though exactly what they mean by that and why they think that matters tends to vary. That said, I suspect your response is in line with the person I was originally responding to. In a different context I might be more sympathetic to this specific formulation of the concept since it's not always clear how much agency the background dancers in a music video or advert have. However, on the original topic of video games, the notion of "character agency" is rather pernicious.
      - nosignono 1y ago
        In a videogame, I can think of some examples. In Kotor 2, there's a character called "The Handmaiden", who will join your party if the player character is a male. She talks at great length about her situation and the decisions the player should make. She's depicted as a chaste, virginal religious character. But one of the very first things you can do with her when she joins your party is spar with her. And she strips into black lingerie to do so. Then she stays in black lingerie on your ship while you go and do other stuff. She's clearly there as an object for the audience to drool over. It's given a very surface level justification ("we always spar with only our bodies"), but that justification is provided the instant before the player sees her in her undies. (Which, it's important to note, aren't like modest undergarments one might expect from a religious figure like this, but are specifically sexy underwear.) Compare this to another Star Wars game, Jedi: Fallen Order, where the Night Sister Mirrin can becomes romantically involved with the player character. She has a well developed culture, and is given space to articulate her personality, choices, and opinions in a cogent way. She can be a romantic interest without being an object. She is as complex as all the other characters, and we don't see her positioned in sexy lingerie suddenly out of the blue. I can come up with other examples if those aren't illustrative.
        Dweller1622 1y ago
        No, that's fine, since I think it's not only the case that these are sufficient, but that I simply wasn't explicit enough in my rejection. What I'm disputing is any application of objectification theory to media analysis wherein there are no actual agents involved. Neither The Handmaiden nor Night Sister Mirrin ever possessed any agency, nor were they deprived of it. There is simply no moral valence in how one treats or regards them. The demand here is that they be treated as if they possessed agency. I see no reason or obligation to do so.
the_af 1y ago
But the specific organization we're discussing is not feminist, they only disguise themselves as such.
- poszlem 1y ago
  No true feminist... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
  - the_af 1y ago
    The "no true Scotsman" dismissal doesn't work when it's actually not a Scotsman. Or, as in this case, it's not a feminist organization.
- morkalork 1y ago
  You can't really say that, there are many variations; for example, the women advocating for prohibition of alcohol way back in the day were feminists. Socially, their views would be more aligned with this Australian organization.
  - the_af 1y ago
    But that'd be damning: these views (banning alcohol) of some of the early feminist movements are hopelessly outdated. Alignment with them would make Collective Shout conservative... and aligned with today's religious right, as I'm arguing all along.
nosignono 1y ago
There exist sex-negative feminists, but it is wrong to describe that as a feminist position. For the better part of a decade feminists have been wildly anti-objectification, not anti-sex. It's an important distinction. For example, most modern feminists are pro sex-work, but only under conditions that guarantee safety, autonomy, and health care for the sex workers. That's very different from how most sex work is done today. So a modern feminist might say that we should be doing more to protect the sex workers who are held in bondage by a pimp, and forced to walk the streets while simultaneously arguing in favor of well regulated, protected brothels or private sex work.

sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago

It's interesting that you equate opposition to sexualization of women in media with sex negativity. One does not necessarily imply the other. You can be sex positive and believe that media sexualizes women to a problematic degree.

some_random 1y ago
There's a reason I wrote "casual feminist suite of views" because while they two are very closely linked they are indeed separate.
Dweller1622 1y ago
Can you give me an example of this? As far as I understand it sex positivity doesn't seem to be concerned with "media sexualizing women" in and of itself. Consequently I'm not sure what "media [that] sexualizes women to a problematic degree" is or would even look like.
- nosignono 1y ago
  It has to do with agency, primarily. Is the character in the media given the agency and depth necessary to support their sexual appetites? Or are they treated like an object by the camera, a 2 dimensional cutout whose purpose is only to be an object. Compare, for example, Sex and the City, where 4 women were regularly engaged in a variety of sexual encounters and say, background dancers in a music video or advert that exist to appeal as objects to a male audience.
  - Dweller1622 1y ago
    I've definitely seen people say it's about agency, though exactly what they mean by that and why they think that matters tends to vary. That said, I suspect your response is in line with the person I was originally responding to. In a different context I might be more sympathetic to this specific formulation of the concept since it's not always clear how much agency the background dancers in a music video or advert have. However, on the original topic of video games, the notion of "character agency" is rather pernicious.
    - nosignono 1y ago
      In a videogame, I can think of some examples. In Kotor 2, there's a character called "The Handmaiden", who will join your party if the player character is a male. She talks at great length about her situation and the decisions the player should make. She's depicted as a chaste, virginal religious character. But one of the very first things you can do with her when she joins your party is spar with her. And she strips into black lingerie to do so. Then she stays in black lingerie on your ship while you go and do other stuff. She's clearly there as an object for the audience to drool over. It's given a very surface level justification ("we always spar with only our bodies"), but that justification is provided the instant before the player sees her in her undies. (Which, it's important to note, aren't like modest undergarments one might expect from a religious figure like this, but are specifically sexy underwear.) Compare this to another Star Wars game, Jedi: Fallen Order, where the Night Sister Mirrin can becomes romantically involved with the player character. She has a well developed culture, and is given space to articulate her personality, choices, and opinions in a cogent way. She can be a romantic interest without being an object. She is as complex as all the other characters, and we don't see her positioned in sexy lingerie suddenly out of the blue. I can come up with other examples if those aren't illustrative.
      - Dweller1622 1y ago
        No, that's fine, since I think it's not only the case that these are sufficient, but that I simply wasn't explicit enough in my rejection. What I'm disputing is any application of objectification theory to media analysis wherein there are no actual agents involved. Neither The Handmaiden nor Night Sister Mirrin ever possessed any agency, nor were they deprived of it. There is simply no moral valence in how one treats or regards them. The demand here is that they be treated as if they possessed agency. I see no reason or obligation to do so.

the_af 1y ago

But the specific organization we're discussing is not feminist, they only disguise themselves as such.

poszlem 1y ago
No true feminist... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
- the_af 1y ago
  The "no true Scotsman" dismissal doesn't work when it's actually not a Scotsman. Or, as in this case, it's not a feminist organization.
morkalork 1y ago
You can't really say that, there are many variations; for example, the women advocating for prohibition of alcohol way back in the day were feminists. Socially, their views would be more aligned with this Australian organization.
- the_af 1y ago
  But that'd be damning: these views (banning alcohol) of some of the early feminist movements are hopelessly outdated. Alignment with them would make Collective Shout conservative... and aligned with today's religious right, as I'm arguing all along.

nosignono 1y ago

There exist sex-negative feminists, but it is wrong to describe that as a feminist position. For the better part of a decade feminists have been wildly anti-objectification, not anti-sex. It's an important distinction. For example, most modern feminists are pro sex-work, but only under conditions that guarantee safety, autonomy, and health care for the sex workers. That's very different from how most sex work is done today. So a modern feminist might say that we should be doing more to protect the sex workers who are held in bondage by a pimp, and forced to walk the streets while simultaneously arguing in favor of well regulated, protected brothels or private sex work.