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I thought about PHEV but in the end went full EV simply because it seemed to me with two whole power trains that's 2x the components to go wrong/need maintenanc

by pmg101 1y ago

I thought about PHEV but in the end went full EV simply because it seemed to me with two whole power trains that's 2x the components to go wrong/need maintenance.

happyPersonR 1y ago
This. This times 100x . Also, it’s not like each powertrain has an independent failure mode. If either break, your car is a brick until it’s fixed.
- silverquiet 1y ago
  I have a friend who drives a Chevy Volt with a dead ICE engine; she just charges the battery and uses it as a (rather short range) pure EV vehicle. Not ideal, but it works for her until she gets something else.
  - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
    If she was in California she wouldn't be able to pass smog at her next inspection, which is a funny problem considering she drives in pure EV mode now.
mort96 1y ago
Oh I agree completely. I'm driving an old diesel now but I have no desire to get a hybrid, I'd get a pure EV if I were to buy a new car. But there are some tempting things in principle about plug-in hybrids
m_fayer 1y ago
That same insight applies to regular hybrids, and yet Toyota’s hybrids are legendary for their durability. There’s a reason half the cabs where I live are Prius station wagons, and it’s not their efficiency, judging by how they’re driven.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  Consumer reports found that HEV's were the most reliable, and PHEV"s the least reliable. That's nonsensical, there's little difference between the two. Toyota is the biggest seller of HEV's, Stellantis of PHEV. That's the difference. EV's on paper should be the most reliable, but Tesla is the biggest seller of those. If you want reliability, choose by brand rather than engine type.
  - pmg101 1y ago
    I was comparing a Hyundai Ioniq EV with a Hyundai Ioniq PHEV and was surprised to find more problems reported by the owners of the Ioniq EV. Mostly issues with 12V battery, it seemed like. In the end I bought a Stellantis EV so I probably deserve everything I get - but they are cheap!
    - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
      12V batteries dying in EVs has been a consistent problem. I think it got better for Tesla when they moved from lead acid to lithium ion for the 12V (like the much bigger battery).
  - kube-system 1y ago
    >Consumer reports found that HEV's were the most reliable, and PHEV"s the least reliable. That's nonsensical, there's little difference between the two. Eh, it's not so much nonsensical, as it is that you're just misinterpreting the data. This conversation here is specifically about powertrain reliability, but that isn't what consumer reports measures. They measure complaints about any feature on the vehicle, including ancillary accessories unrelated to the vehicle's ability to transport people. But also as you point out, shitty engineering (Stellantis's specialty) is a bigger issue than any particular drivetrain type.
eldaisfish 1y ago
Toyota's success with the Prius proves that this fear is unfounded. You will regularly find second hand prius models for sale with 500,000 km on the odometer. Just think - if two drivetrains were less reliable, wouldn't you see that with the Prius?
kube-system 1y ago
That's a common misconception, but hybrids are almost never as complicated as an ICE powertrain plus an EV powertrain. E.g. most hybrids are able to eliminate many parts that ICE vehicles require, like, starters, drive belts, multi-ratio transmissions, alternators, etc. Because of this, many hybrids surpass ICE-only vehicles in reliability.
teamonkey 1y ago
In some ways it’s more complicated. The battery management and cooling is a point of failure. It’s also heavier and so wear and tear on suspension is greater. On the other hand, a Toyota hybrid doesn’t have a gearbox at all, not even a CVT. Instead it has something similar to a differential, it’s mechanically simple and very reliable. It uses the electric motor in place of a turbo, so that’s another common failure point removed. It doesn’t have a starter motor, and the Atkinson cycle engine should suffer less stress than an equivalent petrol. Practically the biggest problem is finding a 3rd party garage who will inspect the hybrid parts as part of a service.
Mawr 1y ago
You're right in principle, but it's important to remember that tradeoffs exist. You can very much trade off engineering effort and time to improve reliability. Commercial aviation is a great example of taming extreme inherent unsafety of aircraft by applying a lot of resources to the engineering side. Another is space programs. And car power trains have nothing on those ;) As Toyota has shown, it's totally possible to make reliable hybrid cars with enough engineering thrown at the problem. So if all things were equal, you'd absolutely expect an EV to be more reliable than a hybrid, but all things are rarely equal.

by pmg101 1y ago

I thought about PHEV but in the end went full EV simply because it seemed to me with two whole power trains that's 2x the components to go wrong/need maintenance.

happyPersonR 1y ago

This. This times 100x . Also, it’s not like each powertrain has an independent failure mode. If either break, your car is a brick until it’s fixed.

silverquiet 1y ago
I have a friend who drives a Chevy Volt with a dead ICE engine; she just charges the battery and uses it as a (rather short range) pure EV vehicle. Not ideal, but it works for her until she gets something else.
- throwawaylaptop 1y ago
  If she was in California she wouldn't be able to pass smog at her next inspection, which is a funny problem considering she drives in pure EV mode now.

mort96 1y ago

Oh I agree completely. I'm driving an old diesel now but I have no desire to get a hybrid, I'd get a pure EV if I were to buy a new car. But there are some tempting things in principle about plug-in hybrids

m_fayer 1y ago

That same insight applies to regular hybrids, and yet Toyota’s hybrids are legendary for their durability. There’s a reason half the cabs where I live are Prius station wagons, and it’s not their efficiency, judging by how they’re driven.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
Consumer reports found that HEV's were the most reliable, and PHEV"s the least reliable. That's nonsensical, there's little difference between the two. Toyota is the biggest seller of HEV's, Stellantis of PHEV. That's the difference. EV's on paper should be the most reliable, but Tesla is the biggest seller of those. If you want reliability, choose by brand rather than engine type.
- pmg101 1y ago
  I was comparing a Hyundai Ioniq EV with a Hyundai Ioniq PHEV and was surprised to find more problems reported by the owners of the Ioniq EV. Mostly issues with 12V battery, it seemed like. In the end I bought a Stellantis EV so I probably deserve everything I get - but they are cheap!
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    12V batteries dying in EVs has been a consistent problem. I think it got better for Tesla when they moved from lead acid to lithium ion for the 12V (like the much bigger battery).
- kube-system 1y ago
  >Consumer reports found that HEV's were the most reliable, and PHEV"s the least reliable. That's nonsensical, there's little difference between the two. Eh, it's not so much nonsensical, as it is that you're just misinterpreting the data. This conversation here is specifically about powertrain reliability, but that isn't what consumer reports measures. They measure complaints about any feature on the vehicle, including ancillary accessories unrelated to the vehicle's ability to transport people. But also as you point out, shitty engineering (Stellantis's specialty) is a bigger issue than any particular drivetrain type.

eldaisfish 1y ago

Toyota's success with the Prius proves that this fear is unfounded. You will regularly find second hand prius models for sale with 500,000 km on the odometer. Just think - if two drivetrains were less reliable, wouldn't you see that with the Prius?

kube-system 1y ago

That's a common misconception, but hybrids are almost never as complicated as an ICE powertrain plus an EV powertrain. E.g. most hybrids are able to eliminate many parts that ICE vehicles require, like, starters, drive belts, multi-ratio transmissions, alternators, etc. Because of this, many hybrids surpass ICE-only vehicles in reliability.

teamonkey 1y ago

In some ways it’s more complicated. The battery management and cooling is a point of failure. It’s also heavier and so wear and tear on suspension is greater. On the other hand, a Toyota hybrid doesn’t have a gearbox at all, not even a CVT. Instead it has something similar to a differential, it’s mechanically simple and very reliable. It uses the electric motor in place of a turbo, so that’s another common failure point removed. It doesn’t have a starter motor, and the Atkinson cycle engine should suffer less stress than an equivalent petrol. Practically the biggest problem is finding a 3rd party garage who will inspect the hybrid parts as part of a service.

Mawr 1y ago

You're right in principle, but it's important to remember that tradeoffs exist. You can very much trade off engineering effort and time to improve reliability. Commercial aviation is a great example of taming extreme inherent unsafety of aircraft by applying a lot of resources to the engineering side. Another is space programs. And car power trains have nothing on those ;) As Toyota has shown, it's totally possible to make reliable hybrid cars with enough engineering thrown at the problem. So if all things were equal, you'd absolutely expect an EV to be more reliable than a hybrid, but all things are rarely equal.