6 ms·

Good to have more data points and evidence, but this seems extremely well established by now? Zero tailpipe emissions, drastically removed brake dust, slightly

Good to have more data points and evidence, but this seems extremely well established by now? Zero tailpipe emissions, drastically removed brake dust, slightly higher tire wear (due to weight), but much better overall than ICE.

3eb7988a1663 1y ago
I am just excited because the more EVs mean fewer idiots in hot rods running without mufflers.
- oaiey 1y ago
  I think these will switch last and will found new opportunities to annoy you once switched.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Exactly. What people really hate are loud young people from lower class than them backgrounds. Civics with stupid exhausts are just an example implementation of that. They'll just find something else to hate if you remove that implementation.
    - goda90 1y ago
      When loud engine noises cut through my neighborhood from blocks away, I'm not thinking about the age or class of the person driving the vehicle. I'm thinking about how they're a jerk for modifying their car to be louder and intentionally revving their engine to create noise. If an old billionaire decided to make their private jet louder and then buzzed over my neighborhood, I'd be pissed as well.
- jajko 1y ago
  Well there are new classes of idiots I see pretty frequently - a typical tesla driver going 90 in 120 region of highway without any reason, presumably saving last bits of battery (that has at least some rationale, if they do it due to ie fear then they should not be driving or having license). Over say 50km part of highway, maybe 2000 cars need to overtake such almost stationary object (to regular traffic which generally moves exactly at the speed limit). Fine if you have 3+ lanes, but most highways in Europe have 2 only. Then you have all the trucks, buses and rest of traffic trying to overtake via that 1 free lane, which in heavier (but still cca smooth) traffic will create a massive moving traffic jam immediately. If I didn't see this every other day (and for some reasons its 90% tesla drivers where I live and rest is caravans) I wouldn't believe it to be so common, but it is. Summer now makes it even worse with all holiday drivers.
  - DaSHacka 1y ago
    > going 90 in 120 region of highway without any reason, presumably saving last bits of battery (that has at least some rationale, if they do it due to ie fear then they should not be driving or having license). Was very concerned until I realized you were talking about kilometers and not miles. Otherwise, I'd hope the average driver would firce themselves to drive slower than 120mph out of some sense of fear, or at least a sense of self-preservation.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      Miles are bigger than kilometers so the guy doing 90 among traffic that wants to go 120 might actually be worse in miles because it's a larger speed differential.
      - moate 1y ago
        ...that...that was his point...
  - alliao 1y ago
    it'd tell you what speed to travel at if you want to get to where you want to go lol, chances are they're low and just trying to get to their destination
  - mnmalst 1y ago
    Are you saying it's not ok to drive 90km/h in a zone where 120km/h is allowed? 80km/h is the usual maximum allowed speed for trucks, at least in Germany, so no idea how a car driving 90km/h is such a big problem. That's not a "stationary object" at all, far from it. You are even allowed to drive vehicles with a minimum speed of 60km/h on the Autobahn. If a car driving 90km/h is the cause for a traffic jam there are definitely other factors at play. Not just in zones with a limit of 120km/h but everywhere even without limits.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    I think it's a hilarious example in how buyer demographics effect things. Every Tesla is a potential rocket ship if the driver wants it to be yet they're rarely if ever not driven circles around by laden work vans.
- Hilift 1y ago
  "Artificial engine sounds" is the next step in that evolution pipeline. Or just blast advertisements.
  - neogodless 1y ago
    See the Ioniq 5 N. But those sounds are piped inside... not blasted to the neighbors...
    - beached_whale 1y ago
      Can it be disabled? I love quiet
      - neogodless 1y ago
        I mean, no one would buy the Ioniq 5 N specifically if they didn't want the zoomy car sounds! (OK maybe they just want the fastness! Fair enough) But yes, they can be turned off.
      - Hilift 1y ago
        There's probably a federal or local law requiring some sound. Like the Waymos that incessantly beep beep beep when backing up at the recharging station at 1 mph. You're about five years away from hearing beep beep beep everywhere you go due to the proliferation of driverless vehicles.
        neogodless 1y ago
        To be clear, the exterior sounds hybrids and EVs make is different from the "engine" sounds the Ioniq 5 N pipes inside the car.
      - pavon 1y ago
        The N-line is Hyundai's high-performance designator, like Type R for Honda. It has way more power than you would ever need for normal driving, hopefully to be used on a track and not street racing. The normal Ionic 5 has no faked engine noise (beyond the low-volume external sounds required by law).
- potato3732842 1y ago
  The kids will find a way to be flagrantly annoying. Always has been always will be. Taking their fart can exhausts will be a minor bump in the road. It's not like EVs don't come factory equipped with tons of power to drive the kind of audio systems that people like you also hate.
teleforce 1y ago
>drastically removed brake dust It will be very interesting to see the data for the same car that has many powertrain versions for example the Lexus UX with the UX 200 (ICE), UX 300h (hybrid) and UX 300e (EV) to test which one the best and the worst in term of brake dust residue. My hypotheses is that for brake dust residue the best is hybrid, 2nd will be ICE and the 3rd will be EV. This is due to the fact that the EV version has at least several hundreds kg extra weight (about 400 kg extra), that makes the brake dust residue comparable to ICE if not worst based on the approximately 30% extra vehicle weight for the battery. The hybrid however only has approximately 5% more weight or extra 80 kg different compared to the ICE version.
- eptcyka 1y ago
  Yea, but the EV need not use the disc brakes to stoppe.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  My hypothesis is that in normal driving the EV with 30% extra weight will be using its brakes 90% less, making it beat the ICE version by a lot. EV versus hybrid I couldn't say, it comes down to exactly how strong the hybrid regen is and how aggressively the owner brakes in comparison. Why is your hypothesis so different from mine? How much use do you expect the EV brakes to get?
- doikor 1y ago
  EVs don’t really use the brakes during normal driving being mainly used for emergency braking. You could achieve the same with engine braking with ICE but most don’t bother.
- sjducb 1y ago
  My EV doesn’t use the brakes in normal driving. It can pull ~ 0.3G of regen before the physical brakes engage. It will regeneratively brake all the way to a stop. The brake disks are there for emergencies and spirited driving.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  I think buyer demographics are gonna play hugely into it. Some makes and models are highly popular among the drivers who are on the low side of the bell curve and basically never hit the brake when not stopping because they're almost never coming upon slower traffic. Some makes and models are highly popular on the other side of the peak of the bell curve where the drivers are always hitting the brake way more than the median or average. An ICE Tacoma may very well use way less brake than a EV Altima because the venn-diagram of people who drive like a bat out of hell and the people who buy Tacomas is approximately two circles.
30gdan 1y ago
Much better at what ? Do you have decent data for what it takes (CO2, child labour , cost of supply chain, ...) to make your Lithium based battery VS melting an ICE ? Same question for recycling ? Comparing only the lifecycles of products doesn't make any sense if you don't put in perspective creation & destruction and this is where the massive lie is, no EV constructor has ever been transparent about this because it's overall just way dirtier by no way cleaner ! Extracting rare metals from Africa, sending to China for transformation into batteries and back to US/EU for putting into an EV (that we cannot properly recycle yet) just cannot be cleaner than melting an ICE with processes that are 100+ years old and that can be done locally without the use of ships to make 3 roundabouts on earth. Yeah established on a truncated view of reality !
- mmaurizi 1y ago
  Ships are actually much more fuel efficient than trucks, by weight/volume. Saying it must be inefficient because it includes ship transit instead of trucking "locally" is innumerate.
  - 30gdan 1y ago
    I'm saying it's inefficient because of a combination of many things not only shipping. Also add to this the fact that your electricity in the US cames from fossil fuel and you'll see how clean your EV is !
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      From your own source: > In countries that get most of their energy from burning dirty coal, the emissions numbers for EVs don’t look nearly as good—but they’re still on par with or better than burning gasoline. Trump's own EPA calls your argument the #1 myth about EVs. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
      - 30gdan 1y ago
        Myth #2 numbers from graphical representation are totally off from the 80% initial C02 difference in the MIT study. IDK where these numebrs come from but I'd tend to trust the MIT more than some propaganda from your beloved president. Same goes for myth#1 IMO numbers are Trump related propaganda and have nothing to do with reality. Furthermore on myth #1 they talk about efficiency of EV vs ICE but totally forget to mention the efficiency of generating that said energy : 33% efficiency for coal based electricity generation VS 90% for petroleum refinement .... In the end when you sum up overall efficiencies are identical so I call bullshit and propaganda ...
sofixa 1y ago
> slightly higher tire wear (due to weight) And thus higher tire particle pollution. And it's not slightly, EVs are on average 10-15% heavier than similar ICE vehicles. We've now found that a lot of the various small particle pollution (e.g. in bodies of water) come from tires. So, while still drastically better than ICEs, they still have externalities (pollution, time wasted in traffic, vehicle accidents) and there should still be efforts to try to reduce the number of cars on the roads instead of just replacing them 1:1 and calling it a day.
- 1234letshaveatw 1y ago
  I'm sure you feel the same way about cutting down on cell phones right? How about we just let people keep their cars (preferably EVs), but feel free to go live in a dense cell block and eat bug juice if that is what floats your boat.
  - p_j_w 1y ago
    > feel free to go live in a dense cell block and eat bug juice if that is what floats your boat. That this is considered a valid response to someone suggesting we need more mass transit is a sign that our discourse has fallen off a cliff. You can and should do better.
    - 1234letshaveatw 1y ago
      Why is it that these "do better" suggestions always feel like an attempt to shut discussion down. Being anti-car does not make you some moral authority
      - p_j_w 1y ago
        "You want everyone to live in a prison cell and eat nothing but bugs" is not discussion.
        1234letshaveatw 1y ago
boringg 1y ago
Tire wear isn't as great -- since tires have a lot of bad polymers in it.. hopefully we can solve that one soon.

3eb7988a1663 1y ago

I am just excited because the more EVs mean fewer idiots in hot rods running without mufflers.

oaiey 1y ago
I think these will switch last and will found new opportunities to annoy you once switched.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Exactly. What people really hate are loud young people from lower class than them backgrounds. Civics with stupid exhausts are just an example implementation of that. They'll just find something else to hate if you remove that implementation.
  - goda90 1y ago
    When loud engine noises cut through my neighborhood from blocks away, I'm not thinking about the age or class of the person driving the vehicle. I'm thinking about how they're a jerk for modifying their car to be louder and intentionally revving their engine to create noise. If an old billionaire decided to make their private jet louder and then buzzed over my neighborhood, I'd be pissed as well.
jajko 1y ago
Well there are new classes of idiots I see pretty frequently - a typical tesla driver going 90 in 120 region of highway without any reason, presumably saving last bits of battery (that has at least some rationale, if they do it due to ie fear then they should not be driving or having license). Over say 50km part of highway, maybe 2000 cars need to overtake such almost stationary object (to regular traffic which generally moves exactly at the speed limit). Fine if you have 3+ lanes, but most highways in Europe have 2 only. Then you have all the trucks, buses and rest of traffic trying to overtake via that 1 free lane, which in heavier (but still cca smooth) traffic will create a massive moving traffic jam immediately. If I didn't see this every other day (and for some reasons its 90% tesla drivers where I live and rest is caravans) I wouldn't believe it to be so common, but it is. Summer now makes it even worse with all holiday drivers.
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  > going 90 in 120 region of highway without any reason, presumably saving last bits of battery (that has at least some rationale, if they do it due to ie fear then they should not be driving or having license). Was very concerned until I realized you were talking about kilometers and not miles. Otherwise, I'd hope the average driver would firce themselves to drive slower than 120mph out of some sense of fear, or at least a sense of self-preservation.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Miles are bigger than kilometers so the guy doing 90 among traffic that wants to go 120 might actually be worse in miles because it's a larger speed differential.
    - moate 1y ago
      ...that...that was his point...
- alliao 1y ago
  it'd tell you what speed to travel at if you want to get to where you want to go lol, chances are they're low and just trying to get to their destination
- mnmalst 1y ago
  Are you saying it's not ok to drive 90km/h in a zone where 120km/h is allowed? 80km/h is the usual maximum allowed speed for trucks, at least in Germany, so no idea how a car driving 90km/h is such a big problem. That's not a "stationary object" at all, far from it. You are even allowed to drive vehicles with a minimum speed of 60km/h on the Autobahn. If a car driving 90km/h is the cause for a traffic jam there are definitely other factors at play. Not just in zones with a limit of 120km/h but everywhere even without limits.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  I think it's a hilarious example in how buyer demographics effect things. Every Tesla is a potential rocket ship if the driver wants it to be yet they're rarely if ever not driven circles around by laden work vans.
Hilift 1y ago
"Artificial engine sounds" is the next step in that evolution pipeline. Or just blast advertisements.
- neogodless 1y ago
  See the Ioniq 5 N. But those sounds are piped inside... not blasted to the neighbors...
  - beached_whale 1y ago
    Can it be disabled? I love quiet
    - neogodless 1y ago
      I mean, no one would buy the Ioniq 5 N specifically if they didn't want the zoomy car sounds! (OK maybe they just want the fastness! Fair enough) But yes, they can be turned off.
    - Hilift 1y ago
      There's probably a federal or local law requiring some sound. Like the Waymos that incessantly beep beep beep when backing up at the recharging station at 1 mph. You're about five years away from hearing beep beep beep everywhere you go due to the proliferation of driverless vehicles.
      - neogodless 1y ago
        To be clear, the exterior sounds hybrids and EVs make is different from the "engine" sounds the Ioniq 5 N pipes inside the car.
    - pavon 1y ago
      The N-line is Hyundai's high-performance designator, like Type R for Honda. It has way more power than you would ever need for normal driving, hopefully to be used on a track and not street racing. The normal Ionic 5 has no faked engine noise (beyond the low-volume external sounds required by law).
potato3732842 1y ago
The kids will find a way to be flagrantly annoying. Always has been always will be. Taking their fart can exhausts will be a minor bump in the road. It's not like EVs don't come factory equipped with tons of power to drive the kind of audio systems that people like you also hate.

teleforce 1y ago

>drastically removed brake dust It will be very interesting to see the data for the same car that has many powertrain versions for example the Lexus UX with the UX 200 (ICE), UX 300h (hybrid) and UX 300e (EV) to test which one the best and the worst in term of brake dust residue. My hypotheses is that for brake dust residue the best is hybrid, 2nd will be ICE and the 3rd will be EV. This is due to the fact that the EV version has at least several hundreds kg extra weight (about 400 kg extra), that makes the brake dust residue comparable to ICE if not worst based on the approximately 30% extra vehicle weight for the battery. The hybrid however only has approximately 5% more weight or extra 80 kg different compared to the ICE version.

eptcyka 1y ago
Yea, but the EV need not use the disc brakes to stoppe.
Dylan16807 1y ago
My hypothesis is that in normal driving the EV with 30% extra weight will be using its brakes 90% less, making it beat the ICE version by a lot. EV versus hybrid I couldn't say, it comes down to exactly how strong the hybrid regen is and how aggressively the owner brakes in comparison. Why is your hypothesis so different from mine? How much use do you expect the EV brakes to get?
doikor 1y ago
EVs don’t really use the brakes during normal driving being mainly used for emergency braking. You could achieve the same with engine braking with ICE but most don’t bother.
sjducb 1y ago
My EV doesn’t use the brakes in normal driving. It can pull ~ 0.3G of regen before the physical brakes engage. It will regeneratively brake all the way to a stop. The brake disks are there for emergencies and spirited driving.
potato3732842 1y ago
I think buyer demographics are gonna play hugely into it. Some makes and models are highly popular among the drivers who are on the low side of the bell curve and basically never hit the brake when not stopping because they're almost never coming upon slower traffic. Some makes and models are highly popular on the other side of the peak of the bell curve where the drivers are always hitting the brake way more than the median or average. An ICE Tacoma may very well use way less brake than a EV Altima because the venn-diagram of people who drive like a bat out of hell and the people who buy Tacomas is approximately two circles.

30gdan 1y ago

Much better at what ? Do you have decent data for what it takes (CO2, child labour , cost of supply chain, ...) to make your Lithium based battery VS melting an ICE ? Same question for recycling ? Comparing only the lifecycles of products doesn't make any sense if you don't put in perspective creation & destruction and this is where the massive lie is, no EV constructor has ever been transparent about this because it's overall just way dirtier by no way cleaner ! Extracting rare metals from Africa, sending to China for transformation into batteries and back to US/EU for putting into an EV (that we cannot properly recycle yet) just cannot be cleaner than melting an ICE with processes that are 100+ years old and that can be done locally without the use of ships to make 3 roundabouts on earth. Yeah established on a truncated view of reality !

mmaurizi 1y ago
Ships are actually much more fuel efficient than trucks, by weight/volume. Saying it must be inefficient because it includes ship transit instead of trucking "locally" is innumerate.
- 30gdan 1y ago
  I'm saying it's inefficient because of a combination of many things not only shipping. Also add to this the fact that your electricity in the US cames from fossil fuel and you'll see how clean your EV is !
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    From your own source: > In countries that get most of their energy from burning dirty coal, the emissions numbers for EVs don’t look nearly as good—but they’re still on par with or better than burning gasoline. Trump's own EPA calls your argument the #1 myth about EVs. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
    - 30gdan 1y ago
      Myth #2 numbers from graphical representation are totally off from the 80% initial C02 difference in the MIT study. IDK where these numebrs come from but I'd tend to trust the MIT more than some propaganda from your beloved president. Same goes for myth#1 IMO numbers are Trump related propaganda and have nothing to do with reality. Furthermore on myth #1 they talk about efficiency of EV vs ICE but totally forget to mention the efficiency of generating that said energy : 33% efficiency for coal based electricity generation VS 90% for petroleum refinement .... In the end when you sum up overall efficiencies are identical so I call bullshit and propaganda ...

sofixa 1y ago

> slightly higher tire wear (due to weight) And thus higher tire particle pollution. And it's not slightly, EVs are on average 10-15% heavier than similar ICE vehicles. We've now found that a lot of the various small particle pollution (e.g. in bodies of water) come from tires. So, while still drastically better than ICEs, they still have externalities (pollution, time wasted in traffic, vehicle accidents) and there should still be efforts to try to reduce the number of cars on the roads instead of just replacing them 1:1 and calling it a day.

1234letshaveatw 1y ago
I'm sure you feel the same way about cutting down on cell phones right? How about we just let people keep their cars (preferably EVs), but feel free to go live in a dense cell block and eat bug juice if that is what floats your boat.
- p_j_w 1y ago
  > feel free to go live in a dense cell block and eat bug juice if that is what floats your boat. That this is considered a valid response to someone suggesting we need more mass transit is a sign that our discourse has fallen off a cliff. You can and should do better.
  - 1234letshaveatw 1y ago
    Why is it that these "do better" suggestions always feel like an attempt to shut discussion down. Being anti-car does not make you some moral authority
    - p_j_w 1y ago
      "You want everyone to live in a prison cell and eat nothing but bugs" is not discussion.
      - 1234letshaveatw 1y ago

boringg 1y ago

Tire wear isn't as great -- since tires have a lot of bad polymers in it.. hopefully we can solve that one soon.