5 ms·

> In particular as general population don't really care about it > if some lobbies are pulling the strings Sure looks like it. Many people don't understand th

> In particular as general population don't really care about it > if some lobbies are pulling the strings Sure looks like it. Many people don't understand the consequences of the ChatControl proposition (backdoors for governments into all messaging apps) [1]. Politicians insists it is only about protecting kids from predators online, but see for example Sweden: * Police and secret police will have this access for swedish citizens. * Secret police have an agreement with NSA about data sharing (see Snowden). * NSA will end up storing all my DM:s. * Another country also have an agreement with NSA about data sharing. * This other country will find out about my sexual orientation or political beliefs the moment I board a plane to their country. All of this will be outside of control from my country or the laws of my country (Sweden), that is supposed to protect my free speech [2] and anti discrimination laws [3]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Combat_Child_Sexual_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_to_Prevent_and_Comb... 2: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/yttrandefrihetsgrundlag-19911469_sfs-1991-1469/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... 3: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/diskrimineringslag-2008567_sfs-2008-567/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven... F*k Ylva Johansson: > Research by several newspapers led to allegations of questionable connections between Johansson and her staff and companies that would benefit financially from her proposal, including Thorn and WeProtect. > Johansson rejected the accusations as being untrue, true but not illegal and as not even being accusations. > Her claim to have given data protection organizations the same access as to the backers of her proposal was rejected as untrue by several organizations and members of the EU parliament. Johansson reacted to growing rejection of her proposal by ordering commercial advertisement on Twitter paid for with EU funds. The advertisement was criticized as being misleading and illegal according to the EU's rules for targeted advertisement. [4] 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of_private_chat_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson#Surveillance_of...

edg5000 1y ago
Agreed. Although to be the devil's advocate for a moment: Governments can currently easily tap email, and phone tapping is more feasible at scale due to machine transcription. So the apps gave use a temporary safe haven, which may get compromised by Chat Control. And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces.
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  The devil doesn't need an advocate here. "Temporary safe haven" is the kind of phrasing the advocates of anti-privacy policies use to argue that this "temporary" state of affairs should be destroyed.
- 0points 1y ago
  > And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. At least in my country, there has been serious laws protecting the users from police opening letters (1962:700; Postlagens tystnadsplikt). This was changed in January 2023 because people exploited it to send drugs thru post office [1]. Of course without any protests in Sweden because again people don't realize their rights to privacy are taken away from them. 1: https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-mojlighet-att-hindra-illegala-forsandelser-i-brev-och-paket https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-moj...
  - poly2it 1y ago
    I'm increasingly annoyed by the extent at which our state (Sweden, EU) is willing to sacrifice our rights to hinder the usage of recreational drugs by a minority of the population. How can it be that alcohol is endorsed so widely, given that we know many of the drugs we are being sacrificed to stop are safer, less addictive and less potent [1]? It's perhaps cynical to ask, but are we protecting the citizens, or the alcohol industry? 1: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_assessment_of_drugs_bar_plot.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_asse...
    - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
      Sweden is a nanny state. Can't buy booze on Sundays and the government shop's are only open 5 hours on Saturday. Yet I can go to certain neighborhoods in Stockholm and get pretty much every thing under the sun and that's open 24/7.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  > And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. This is the source of some massive disconnects between people and their governments, I think. They had some permission, which we basically agreed on as a society, when their tampering was obvious and/or limited in scale (just due to practical constraints). We gave our consent to be governed with those constraints in mind. Nowadays they are continuing without those implicit constraints and they don’t want to have the conversation about implementing new explicit constraints. This isn’t the deal we agreed to, really, it is just what they can get away with without permission. You can rule over a populace without their permission, of course—it’s just very different from the sort of pleasant (albeit never perfect) relationship that willing populations and their elected officials have had recently.
jajko 1y ago
One can't rely on some sort of 'decency' of a given country and hope for the best, that ship has long sailed. You mention Sweden, I can easily also name Switzerland, the land of generally very decent, moral and polite people. Yet sometimes curtains falls off a bit and one can see how various police departments will do everything possible to track and follow people. Police are generally very nice but I've also seen some unprovoked brutality and generally less-than-stellar behavior by various authorities that should know and do better. Protect what you can, while you can. No state is your friend, its not normally an outright enemy but rather a party focused on its own interests, your rights or needs be damned.
- 0points 1y ago
  Yea, I started using ProtonVPN specifically because they are placed in Switzerland. Switzerland is not in EU, not in 12-eyes, not in any of that shit. I'm sure they are up to no good, too but at least the distance between them and NSA is farther, I hope.
- lo_zamoyski 1y ago
  > Police are generally very nice but I've also seen some unprovoked brutality The so-called israelization[0] of the police. Certainly you see that in the US. If you compare the local police, say, 50 years ago with their counterparts today, you definitely notice a strong militarization. That may be appropriate for special units handling dangerous cases, but it should not characterize the rank and file that handle petty crime or public disorder. > No state is your friend, its not normally an outright enemy but rather a party focused on its own interests The state is the only recourse of the common man against powerful private interests. In this case (surveillance, etc), private interest has been used as a way to get around the legal limitations of government. Companies like Google and Facebook can track people with greater ease than the government can. [0] https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-polic...
  - octopoc 1y ago
    I have in the past often advocated for more training for police, so I have to say this is an eye opener for sure. Thanks for posting this. The question I have is, why?? I assume some Israelis or people with ties to Israel who wanted Israel to have influence over the US police. (But why?) I doubt it was a big thing like “gee, you know what Israel can export? Police brutality!” “Hey that’s a great idea!” But that’s kind of how it comes across.
johnisgood 1y ago
> This other country will find out about my sexual orientation or political beliefs the moment I board a plane to their country. That is literally going to put people's lives at risk. Crazy.
PeppySteppy 1y ago
You are misleading by using "secret police" when what you are are looking for is the "security police". Secret police definition [1] > Secret police (or political police) are police, intelligence, or security agencies that engage in covert operations against a government's political, ideological, or social opponents and dissidents. Secret police organizations are characteristic of authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. Security police definition [2] > In some countries, security police is the name given to the secret security and intelligence services charged with protecting the state at the highest level, including responsibilities such as personal protection of the head of state, counter-espionage, and anti-terrorism. Specific example for Swedish 'Security Police'.[3] if you look up any EU agency with similar roles it will be found that they are all security, not secret. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_police 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Security_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Security_Service
- 0points 1y ago
  Okay, I was not aware of this distinction. Thanks for correcting me! FWIW, the distinction is not as clear cut to me. In the 1970s, the ruling government body (social democrats) passed on information in order to make registers of political opponents in the far left and far right to SÄPO. More of that part here: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kerhetspolisen#%C3%96vervakade_partier_och_organisationer https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kerhetspolisen#%C3%96ve... The Nixon watergate scandal was also similar to your first definition there.
  - 0points 1y ago
    Just wanted to add an important piece about us not living in authoritarian states... Palantir, founded by Peter Thiel (currently funding JD Vance), is building a vast person database [1]. I believe their biggest customer is the US government, and is being used by ICE [2]. 1: https://beyondthefirewall.substack.com/p/palantirs-new-master-database-what https://beyondthefirewall.substack.com/p/palantirs-new-maste... 2: https://www.404media.co/leaked-palantirs-plan-to-help-ice-deport-people/ https://www.404media.co/leaked-palantirs-plan-to-help-ice-de...

edg5000 1y ago

Agreed. Although to be the devil's advocate for a moment: Governments can currently easily tap email, and phone tapping is more feasible at scale due to machine transcription. So the apps gave use a temporary safe haven, which may get compromised by Chat Control. And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces.

JoshTriplett 1y ago
The devil doesn't need an advocate here. "Temporary safe haven" is the kind of phrasing the advocates of anti-privacy policies use to argue that this "temporary" state of affairs should be destroyed.
0points 1y ago
> And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. At least in my country, there has been serious laws protecting the users from police opening letters (1962:700; Postlagens tystnadsplikt). This was changed in January 2023 because people exploited it to send drugs thru post office [1]. Of course without any protests in Sweden because again people don't realize their rights to privacy are taken away from them. 1: https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-mojlighet-att-hindra-illegala-forsandelser-i-brev-och-paket https://www.svenskhandel.se/nyheter/nyhet/lagandring-ger-moj...
- poly2it 1y ago
  I'm increasingly annoyed by the extent at which our state (Sweden, EU) is willing to sacrifice our rights to hinder the usage of recreational drugs by a minority of the population. How can it be that alcohol is endorsed so widely, given that we know many of the drugs we are being sacrificed to stop are safer, less addictive and less potent [1]? It's perhaps cynical to ask, but are we protecting the citizens, or the alcohol industry? 1: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_assessment_of_drugs_bar_plot.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_harm_asse...
  - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
    Sweden is a nanny state. Can't buy booze on Sundays and the government shop's are only open 5 hours on Saturday. Yet I can go to certain neighborhoods in Stockholm and get pretty much every thing under the sun and that's open 24/7.
bee_rider 1y ago
> And before email we had mail, handled directly by the government, although reading mail is more difficult without leaving traces. This is the source of some massive disconnects between people and their governments, I think. They had some permission, which we basically agreed on as a society, when their tampering was obvious and/or limited in scale (just due to practical constraints). We gave our consent to be governed with those constraints in mind. Nowadays they are continuing without those implicit constraints and they don’t want to have the conversation about implementing new explicit constraints. This isn’t the deal we agreed to, really, it is just what they can get away with without permission. You can rule over a populace without their permission, of course—it’s just very different from the sort of pleasant (albeit never perfect) relationship that willing populations and their elected officials have had recently.

jajko 1y ago

One can't rely on some sort of 'decency' of a given country and hope for the best, that ship has long sailed. You mention Sweden, I can easily also name Switzerland, the land of generally very decent, moral and polite people. Yet sometimes curtains falls off a bit and one can see how various police departments will do everything possible to track and follow people. Police are generally very nice but I've also seen some unprovoked brutality and generally less-than-stellar behavior by various authorities that should know and do better. Protect what you can, while you can. No state is your friend, its not normally an outright enemy but rather a party focused on its own interests, your rights or needs be damned.

0points 1y ago
Yea, I started using ProtonVPN specifically because they are placed in Switzerland. Switzerland is not in EU, not in 12-eyes, not in any of that shit. I'm sure they are up to no good, too but at least the distance between them and NSA is farther, I hope.
lo_zamoyski 1y ago
> Police are generally very nice but I've also seen some unprovoked brutality The so-called israelization[0] of the police. Certainly you see that in the US. If you compare the local police, say, 50 years ago with their counterparts today, you definitely notice a strong militarization. That may be appropriate for special units handling dangerous cases, but it should not characterize the rank and file that handle petty crime or public disorder. > No state is your friend, its not normally an outright enemy but rather a party focused on its own interests The state is the only recourse of the common man against powerful private interests. In this case (surveillance, etc), private interest has been used as a way to get around the legal limitations of government. Companies like Google and Facebook can track people with greater ease than the government can. [0] https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-polic...
- octopoc 1y ago
  I have in the past often advocated for more training for police, so I have to say this is an eye opener for sure. Thanks for posting this. The question I have is, why?? I assume some Israelis or people with ties to Israel who wanted Israel to have influence over the US police. (But why?) I doubt it was a big thing like “gee, you know what Israel can export? Police brutality!” “Hey that’s a great idea!” But that’s kind of how it comes across.

johnisgood 1y ago

> This other country will find out about my sexual orientation or political beliefs the moment I board a plane to their country. That is literally going to put people's lives at risk. Crazy.

PeppySteppy 1y ago

You are misleading by using "secret police" when what you are are looking for is the "security police". Secret police definition [1] > Secret police (or political police) are police, intelligence, or security agencies that engage in covert operations against a government's political, ideological, or social opponents and dissidents. Secret police organizations are characteristic of authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. Security police definition [2] > In some countries, security police is the name given to the secret security and intelligence services charged with protecting the state at the highest level, including responsibilities such as personal protection of the head of state, counter-espionage, and anti-terrorism. Specific example for Swedish 'Security Police'.[3] if you look up any EU agency with similar roles it will be found that they are all security, not secret. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_police 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Security_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Security_Service

0points 1y ago
Okay, I was not aware of this distinction. Thanks for correcting me! FWIW, the distinction is not as clear cut to me. In the 1970s, the ruling government body (social democrats) passed on information in order to make registers of political opponents in the far left and far right to SÄPO. More of that part here: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kerhetspolisen#%C3%96vervakade_partier_och_organisationer https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kerhetspolisen#%C3%96ve... The Nixon watergate scandal was also similar to your first definition there.
- 0points 1y ago
  Just wanted to add an important piece about us not living in authoritarian states... Palantir, founded by Peter Thiel (currently funding JD Vance), is building a vast person database [1]. I believe their biggest customer is the US government, and is being used by ICE [2]. 1: https://beyondthefirewall.substack.com/p/palantirs-new-master-database-what https://beyondthefirewall.substack.com/p/palantirs-new-maste... 2: https://www.404media.co/leaked-palantirs-plan-to-help-ice-deport-people/ https://www.404media.co/leaked-palantirs-plan-to-help-ice-de...