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We have other ways to measure atmospheric CO2 that don’t require maintaining a telescope in Hawaii. I don’t know why the funding cut is being made, but this ar

by timr 1y ago

We have other ways to measure atmospheric CO2 that don’t require maintaining a telescope in Hawaii. I don’t know why the funding cut is being made, but this article is leaping to a conclusion.

throwawaymaths 1y ago
Maintaining just the co2 station is probably inexpensive enough that people who care could scrounge for coins under their cushions and keep it alive. I'd happily chip in let's say $50/yr.
- cardamomo 1y ago
  No need to scrounge! What if just a tiny bit of our taxes went to this?
  - throwawaymaths 1y ago
    what if we all paid for things that made the world better out of our own pockets? or do we not believe in those things if it's inconvenient to us?
    - cardamomo 1y ago
      I think taxes are simply one way for us all to collectively pay for important things like basic research, education, healthcare, and transportation.
dmbche 1y ago
The telescope is studying the sun. Solar events have non negligible effects of the weather. Mauna Loa produces meteorological reports used by sailors and pilots all around the world daily. This observatory is the first one to show CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere, and their analyses have been cornerstone to the climate discussion since it's inception. Unless it's shown that the observatory is burning millions, it's nonsensical to shut it down. It's not free to set up another equivalent lab. And locations similar to Mauna Loa are not very common, to be clear. It's not gonna be cheaper to set up an equivalent.
- timr 1y ago
  Well, at least you’re bothering to have the argument that the article didn’t, but you’re also just speculating about the cost/benefit. There are good reasons to shut down telescopes, including age, outdated technology, and deprecation.
  - PopePompus 1y ago
    But it's not a telescope that's measuring the CO2.
    - timr 1y ago
      Exactly! You want to continue measuring CO2 from the same spot? Much easier and less expensive ways to do it.
  - dmbche 1y ago
    No, you're the one speaking about the telescope, while it's not really the point. Meteorologist have been working there since the 1960s. I'm sure you have some understanding of the conplexity of weather and the precision problems with chaotic systems. Mauna Loa has been producing quality data since the 60s and has the means (including telescopes) to gather quality data to do quality analysis. We didn't just strap a telescope to a building - the people in the observatory are not looking at a thermometer, a CO2 meter and then checking out asteroids by the by. Everything they do is to have quality analysis. The works had been refined over all this time. That's why theres a telescope. Because it's pertinent. And indeed there are good reasons to do so - many of the observatories were decommissioned starting in 2010 I believe, a long process - care to share anything that would show that's the case here? To me this is a state of the art meteorological observatory. Unless proven otherwise, we should keep it going.
    - almosthere 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - 1y ago
apical_dendrite 1y ago
In addition to the high altitude and the isolation from human CO2 sources, they also have decades of data from that location, and having long time-series data is helpful. The Trump administration is cutting many worthy science projects, often for arbitrary or political reasons.
perihelions 1y ago
It's not a telescope[0]; it's a spectrometer that takes in local air samples. It's far more useful if it's at high elevation (else you're drowning in local/regional effects as noise), which is why it happens to be colocated with several astronomy experiments—but they are not the same equipment. > "We have other ways to measure atmospheric CO2" It's destroying the continuity of the world's highest-quality and longest-running dataset. edit: Also, this CO2 observatory closure reflects the entire NOAA climate observation budget being zero'd out[1], so I don't know what where else you'd like us to look instead. [0] https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/climate/budget-cuts-climate-observatories.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/climate/budget-cuts-clima... ("But President Trump’s proposed 2026 budget would put an end to Mauna Loa, along with three other key observatories and almost all the climate research being done by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.")
- timr 1y ago
  The thing they’re talking about is a telescope. They incidentally have a CO2 meter there. Running just the CO2 meter is something that could be done remotely, without the need for a telescope, at a tiny fraction of the cost.
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    It's not a cheap CO2 room sensor you got off aliexpress.
    - timr 1y ago
      I didn’t say it was. It’s still orders of magnitude cheaper than maintaining an entire telescope complex on top of a Hawaiian island.
      - teamonkey 1y ago
        I think you’re thinking of the complex on Mauna Kea (which has several individual sites and has funding from several countries). Mauna Loa has a telescope that studies the Sun in order to help understand better how that contributes to changing weather patterns on Earth. It is a relatively small site but very important. The reason that telescopes are often in high up, hard to reach places is because that is the most efficient, cost-effective place for them to be.
cwmoore 1y ago
> maintaining a telescope in Hawaii Why does this seem so idiomatically ridiculous? It is not just the italics, but they do reinforce the statement. The center of the Pacific is not interchangeable with many other places, to observe the atmosphere. Like maintaining a telescope in Seattle would be so much more practical?
- timr 1y ago
  It’s in italics because, if the telescope is outdated or otherwise worth shutting down, keeping it around because it also makes a CO2 measurement is dumb. I don’t know why they’re cutting it, but the article is just wildly speculating.
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    it is being shut down exactly and entirely because it is a station that performs climate research, as per the White House 2026 budget proposal: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/11/nx-s1-5361366/major-budget-cuts-proposed-for-the-national-oceanic-and-atmospheric-administration https://www.npr.org/2025/04/11/nx-s1-5361366/major-budget-cu...
    - timr 1y ago
      That article doesn’t say what you’re asserting. It says that they’re cutting OAR, National Marine Fisheries Service, and some other things. The writer then goes on to say that OAR, in particular, does climate research. But it’s the research arm of NOAA, so that’s to be expected. To go from this to “being shut down exactly and entirely because it is a station that performs climate research” is not a defensible statement. I’m not saying that it’s inconceivable that the current administration is cutting funding that affects Mauna Loa because of climate ideology; I’m saying that without evidence, you’re leaping to conclusions that may or may not be justified.
      - teamonkey 1y ago
        I think there is more than enough evidence and that article covers it well enough, but here’s another one. ‘[Current OMB director Russ] Vought wrote in Project 2025 that NOAA should be disassembled because it is the “source of much of NOAA’s climate alarmism” and said the “preponderance of its climate-change research should be disbanded.”’ It was one of the stated goals of Project 2025, explicitly for the reasons stated, and now one of the proposers of that specific goal is in charge of executing it, and it is being executed in precisely the way outlined in the Project 2025 manifesto. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/white-house-plan-guts-noaa-climate-research-00286408 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/white-house-plan-gu...
intended 1y ago
You always have ways to not invest in science and research. To break liberal and scientific work and data lineages.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
tito 1y ago
It's an atmospheric monitoring station and a solar telescope. I've been there. it's basically a shipping container full of sensors and computers and two people huddled there keeping it running. The big telescopes are on Mauna Kea.

by timr 1y ago

We have other ways to measure atmospheric CO2 that don’t require maintaining a telescope in Hawaii. I don’t know why the funding cut is being made, but this article is leaping to a conclusion.

throwawaymaths 1y ago

Maintaining just the co2 station is probably inexpensive enough that people who care could scrounge for coins under their cushions and keep it alive. I'd happily chip in let's say $50/yr.

cardamomo 1y ago
No need to scrounge! What if just a tiny bit of our taxes went to this?
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  what if we all paid for things that made the world better out of our own pockets? or do we not believe in those things if it's inconvenient to us?
  - cardamomo 1y ago
    I think taxes are simply one way for us all to collectively pay for important things like basic research, education, healthcare, and transportation.

dmbche 1y ago

The telescope is studying the sun. Solar events have non negligible effects of the weather. Mauna Loa produces meteorological reports used by sailors and pilots all around the world daily. This observatory is the first one to show CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere, and their analyses have been cornerstone to the climate discussion since it's inception. Unless it's shown that the observatory is burning millions, it's nonsensical to shut it down. It's not free to set up another equivalent lab. And locations similar to Mauna Loa are not very common, to be clear. It's not gonna be cheaper to set up an equivalent.

timr 1y ago
Well, at least you’re bothering to have the argument that the article didn’t, but you’re also just speculating about the cost/benefit. There are good reasons to shut down telescopes, including age, outdated technology, and deprecation.
- PopePompus 1y ago
  But it's not a telescope that's measuring the CO2.
  - timr 1y ago
    Exactly! You want to continue measuring CO2 from the same spot? Much easier and less expensive ways to do it.
- dmbche 1y ago
  No, you're the one speaking about the telescope, while it's not really the point. Meteorologist have been working there since the 1960s. I'm sure you have some understanding of the conplexity of weather and the precision problems with chaotic systems. Mauna Loa has been producing quality data since the 60s and has the means (including telescopes) to gather quality data to do quality analysis. We didn't just strap a telescope to a building - the people in the observatory are not looking at a thermometer, a CO2 meter and then checking out asteroids by the by. Everything they do is to have quality analysis. The works had been refined over all this time. That's why theres a telescope. Because it's pertinent. And indeed there are good reasons to do so - many of the observatories were decommissioned starting in 2010 I believe, a long process - care to share anything that would show that's the case here? To me this is a state of the art meteorological observatory. Unless proven otherwise, we should keep it going.
  - almosthere 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - 1y ago

apical_dendrite 1y ago

In addition to the high altitude and the isolation from human CO2 sources, they also have decades of data from that location, and having long time-series data is helpful. The Trump administration is cutting many worthy science projects, often for arbitrary or political reasons.

perihelions 1y ago

It's not a telescope[0]; it's a spectrometer that takes in local air samples. It's far more useful if it's at high elevation (else you're drowning in local/regional effects as noise), which is why it happens to be colocated with several astronomy experiments—but they are not the same equipment. > "We have other ways to measure atmospheric CO2" It's destroying the continuity of the world's highest-quality and longest-running dataset. edit: Also, this CO2 observatory closure reflects the entire NOAA climate observation budget being zero'd out[1], so I don't know what where else you'd like us to look instead. [0] https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/about/co2_measurements.html [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/climate/budget-cuts-climate-observatories.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/17/climate/budget-cuts-clima... ("But President Trump’s proposed 2026 budget would put an end to Mauna Loa, along with three other key observatories and almost all the climate research being done by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.")

timr 1y ago
The thing they’re talking about is a telescope. They incidentally have a CO2 meter there. Running just the CO2 meter is something that could be done remotely, without the need for a telescope, at a tiny fraction of the cost.
- teamonkey 1y ago
  It's not a cheap CO2 room sensor you got off aliexpress.
  - timr 1y ago
    I didn’t say it was. It’s still orders of magnitude cheaper than maintaining an entire telescope complex on top of a Hawaiian island.
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      I think you’re thinking of the complex on Mauna Kea (which has several individual sites and has funding from several countries). Mauna Loa has a telescope that studies the Sun in order to help understand better how that contributes to changing weather patterns on Earth. It is a relatively small site but very important. The reason that telescopes are often in high up, hard to reach places is because that is the most efficient, cost-effective place for them to be.

cwmoore 1y ago

> maintaining a telescope in Hawaii Why does this seem so idiomatically ridiculous? It is not just the italics, but they do reinforce the statement. The center of the Pacific is not interchangeable with many other places, to observe the atmosphere. Like maintaining a telescope in Seattle would be so much more practical?

timr 1y ago
It’s in italics because, if the telescope is outdated or otherwise worth shutting down, keeping it around because it also makes a CO2 measurement is dumb. I don’t know why they’re cutting it, but the article is just wildly speculating.
- teamonkey 1y ago
  it is being shut down exactly and entirely because it is a station that performs climate research, as per the White House 2026 budget proposal: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/11/nx-s1-5361366/major-budget-cuts-proposed-for-the-national-oceanic-and-atmospheric-administration https://www.npr.org/2025/04/11/nx-s1-5361366/major-budget-cu...
  - timr 1y ago
    That article doesn’t say what you’re asserting. It says that they’re cutting OAR, National Marine Fisheries Service, and some other things. The writer then goes on to say that OAR, in particular, does climate research. But it’s the research arm of NOAA, so that’s to be expected. To go from this to “being shut down exactly and entirely because it is a station that performs climate research” is not a defensible statement. I’m not saying that it’s inconceivable that the current administration is cutting funding that affects Mauna Loa because of climate ideology; I’m saying that without evidence, you’re leaping to conclusions that may or may not be justified.
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      I think there is more than enough evidence and that article covers it well enough, but here’s another one. ‘[Current OMB director Russ] Vought wrote in Project 2025 that NOAA should be disassembled because it is the “source of much of NOAA’s climate alarmism” and said the “preponderance of its climate-change research should be disbanded.”’ It was one of the stated goals of Project 2025, explicitly for the reasons stated, and now one of the proposers of that specific goal is in charge of executing it, and it is being executed in precisely the way outlined in the Project 2025 manifesto. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/white-house-plan-guts-noaa-climate-research-00286408 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/11/white-house-plan-gu...

intended 1y ago

You always have ways to not invest in science and research. To break liberal and scientific work and data lineages.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

tito 1y ago

It's an atmospheric monitoring station and a solar telescope. I've been there. it's basically a shipping container full of sensors and computers and two people huddled there keeping it running. The big telescopes are on Mauna Kea.