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I think this is about as well as this can be said--failing to teach kids about bad stuff about humanity isn't protecting them, it's failing them.

CalRobert 1y ago
My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  > Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. Superheroes don't exist and never have. People who work tirelessly to chip away -- often imperceptibly -- at sources of badness exist. That's it.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    I meant the fictional characters.
sorcerer-mar 1y ago
Is public hanging "teaching kids about bad stuff?" No.
- camgunz 1y ago
  There's at least a little space between "a world free of violence" and "public hanging".
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    I said we should want a world free of violence, and not purposely exposing people to violence as a matter of daily life (such as public hangings) is an important step towards that. Both in the direct sense that public violence is obviously violence, and indirectly in that there's good evidence that exposure to violence increases proclivity to violence. Two simple questions: 1. Do we want a world without violence? 2. If yes, is public hanging a step towards that world, or away from it?
    - camgunz 1y ago
      1. I don't think this is possible. I think it's better to pursue a world where violence is unnecessary and aberrant. 2. I'm refusing to indulge your strawman. Let's use something like "is teaching your kid how to deal with bullies a step towards that world or away from it"
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        > I don't think this is possible. I think it's better to pursue a world where violence is unnecessary and aberrant. I didn't say it was possible. I said it's worth striving for, and then you stated the same thing with different words. We agree. Ah so you think societies that did public hangings tended to have a strong and reasonable sense of justice. You are wrong. Justice in the sense of "punishing people who are legitimately antisocial" tends to yield less indulgent punishments because they recognize that true justice must be dealt cold and with solemnity. Or do you think it's only a coincidence that the most abhorrent justice systems on the planet do public executions and "civilized" justice systems do not?
        camgunz 1y ago
        I think we're talking past each other so I'm bowing out.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago

CalRobert 1y ago

My wife grew up in a very sheltered church environment where everyone at school and in her life pretty much followed the rules. It didn’t teach her how to handle real life and the real world was a rude awakening. Similarly my older relatives keep saying “but they can’t do that!” About a lot of what’s happening in the US without realising that they very much can. Because nobody is physically stopping them. The exception is my grandfather, who is an honest guy but says he got in some fights in his navy days and ended up better for it. Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. I want my own daughters to know how to protect themselves with diplomacy-or- violence if the former fails.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
> Maybe we need to bring back superheroes who beat the shit out of the bad guys. Superheroes don't exist and never have. People who work tirelessly to chip away -- often imperceptibly -- at sources of badness exist. That's it.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  I meant the fictional characters.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

Is public hanging "teaching kids about bad stuff?" No.

camgunz 1y ago
There's at least a little space between "a world free of violence" and "public hanging".
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  I said we should want a world free of violence, and not purposely exposing people to violence as a matter of daily life (such as public hangings) is an important step towards that. Both in the direct sense that public violence is obviously violence, and indirectly in that there's good evidence that exposure to violence increases proclivity to violence. Two simple questions: 1. Do we want a world without violence? 2. If yes, is public hanging a step towards that world, or away from it?
  - camgunz 1y ago
    1. I don't think this is possible. I think it's better to pursue a world where violence is unnecessary and aberrant. 2. I'm refusing to indulge your strawman. Let's use something like "is teaching your kid how to deal with bullies a step towards that world or away from it"
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      > I don't think this is possible. I think it's better to pursue a world where violence is unnecessary and aberrant. I didn't say it was possible. I said it's worth striving for, and then you stated the same thing with different words. We agree. Ah so you think societies that did public hangings tended to have a strong and reasonable sense of justice. You are wrong. Justice in the sense of "punishing people who are legitimately antisocial" tends to yield less indulgent punishments because they recognize that true justice must be dealt cold and with solemnity. Or do you think it's only a coincidence that the most abhorrent justice systems on the planet do public executions and "civilized" justice systems do not?
      - camgunz 1y ago
        I think we're talking past each other so I'm bowing out.
        sorcerer-mar 1y ago