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I read Tim Weiner's first CIA book and expect something similar. You learn a lot about the obvious and well-known mistakes and crimes. But I lack the basic sym

I read Tim Weiner's first CIA book and expect something similar. You learn a lot about the obvious and well-known mistakes and crimes. But I lack the basic sympathy for these organizations, if they were abolished the world would be a better place.

IdSayThatllDoIt 1y ago
It's a nash equilibrium, the primary value of spycraft is opposition to hostile spycraft. It's like wishing militaries didn't exist.
- jMyles 1y ago
  > It's like wishing militaries didn't exist. I'm convinced that the evolution of the internet will bring this as well.
  - ambicapter 1y ago
    I think the internet is making this problem worse, actually.
    - jMyles 1y ago
      In the short-term, the wheat and chaff are very mixed for sure. But I don't think nation-states are likely to survive for more than 500 or so more years. And the capacity for collaboration, innovation, and even perhaps transcendence into something like a distinct and more peaceful species seems to only grow.
- thrance 1y ago
  The CIA does more than counterespionage. For example, Chile would be a much better place if the CIA didn't overthrow its democracy and install a fascist dictator, Pinochet, in its stead.
  - marknutter 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - bell-cot 1y ago
      But at a lower cost to the American taxpayer, and a much lower cost to America's honor. Sounds like a win to me.
      - marknutter 1y ago
        Agreed
    - wetpaws 1y ago
      [dead]
    - javcasas 1y ago
      Maybe, or maybe not. All we know is what happened after the CIA did its thing. We cannot know what could have happened if they didn't.
    - thrance 1y ago
      Good one. I guess Allende being a socialist justifies killing him, disregarding the popular vote, dismantling a democracy, stripping Chileans of their rights and putting up a fascist dictator. Jesus Christ.
      - olelele 1y ago
        Look up walther rauff..
        cauefcr 1y ago
        A nazi who became a zionist? good lateral move for him.
        1y ago
- CalChris 1y ago
  I like the idea of explaining Mad Magazine's Spy v Spy as a Nash equilibrium. Nash is about strategies, particularly that neither side could do any better with any other strategy. Spying's justification then comes from fact that withdrawal would be a worse strategy.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Well, and being worse than your opponents likely has material negative effects.
arp242 1y ago
> if they were abolished the world would be a better place I'm not so sure about that; some actions of the CIA are questionable at best, but the Soviet Union or KGB were not the good guys by any means, nor is Al Qaeda or Putin's Russia. The failures are far more publicised than the successes. How many $bad_things has the CIA prevented? I don't have a clear answer for that but it's obviously non-zero. How does that balance against the mistakes and crimes? Unclear. And look, obviously the world would be far better off without the CIA, or KGB/FSB, or Al Qaeda, or any of these assholes. But I can't control what Russia or Al Qaeda does and neither can anyone else, and obviously we need to do something to counter these people. It seems to me what we need is a way to have a secret service that doesn't go to the dark side.
- ElevenLathe 1y ago
  > I don't have a clear answer for that but it's obviously non-zero. This isn't obvious to me. Can you help me understand?
  - ACCount36 1y ago
    The last major intelligence coup CIA had (that we know of) was when the agency called the Russia's invasion of Ukraine months in advance. Going public with that was a bold call - CIA put its reputation on the line. But Ukraine was more prepared because of it - and so were its allies. A lot of Ukrainian officials didn't believe that the war was about to start up until the moment it did. Imagine how much worse the situation could have been without US beating the drum.
    - ElevenLathe 1y ago
      That's intelligence gathering. I don't personally have any problems with the CIA's literal spying and intelligence operations. That's what the voters were sold on when it was set up. Gathering accurate information for our democratically elected officials to use to make their decisions can only be a good thing, assuming they follow the rules and leave Americans and America alone (which they of course don't). The entire issue I and most people have with the CIA is that it isn't just a bunch of guys having coded conversations on park benches in foreign capitals and writing thick reports. Yes, those guys are there, but mainly its an unaccountable army that ignores the rules of war and does tons of illegal assassinations, blackmail, etc. These are the lowest of the low. These are people that, in any just society, should be tried and publicly executed while the citizenry packs a picnic lunch and lights off fireworks to celebrate. We can have the fake-mustache guys without the extralegal murder-for-hire and using-computers-to-industrialize-domestic-political-blackmail guys.

IdSayThatllDoIt 1y ago

It's a nash equilibrium, the primary value of spycraft is opposition to hostile spycraft. It's like wishing militaries didn't exist.

jMyles 1y ago
> It's like wishing militaries didn't exist. I'm convinced that the evolution of the internet will bring this as well.
- ambicapter 1y ago
  I think the internet is making this problem worse, actually.
  - jMyles 1y ago
    In the short-term, the wheat and chaff are very mixed for sure. But I don't think nation-states are likely to survive for more than 500 or so more years. And the capacity for collaboration, innovation, and even perhaps transcendence into something like a distinct and more peaceful species seems to only grow.
thrance 1y ago
The CIA does more than counterespionage. For example, Chile would be a much better place if the CIA didn't overthrow its democracy and install a fascist dictator, Pinochet, in its stead.
- marknutter 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    But at a lower cost to the American taxpayer, and a much lower cost to America's honor. Sounds like a win to me.
    - marknutter 1y ago
      Agreed
  - wetpaws 1y ago
    [dead]
  - javcasas 1y ago
    Maybe, or maybe not. All we know is what happened after the CIA did its thing. We cannot know what could have happened if they didn't.
  - thrance 1y ago
    Good one. I guess Allende being a socialist justifies killing him, disregarding the popular vote, dismantling a democracy, stripping Chileans of their rights and putting up a fascist dictator. Jesus Christ.
    - olelele 1y ago
      Look up walther rauff..
      - cauefcr 1y ago
        A nazi who became a zionist? good lateral move for him.
        1y ago
CalChris 1y ago
I like the idea of explaining Mad Magazine's Spy v Spy as a Nash equilibrium. Nash is about strategies, particularly that neither side could do any better with any other strategy. Spying's justification then comes from fact that withdrawal would be a worse strategy.
- lazide 1y ago
  Well, and being worse than your opponents likely has material negative effects.

arp242 1y ago

> if they were abolished the world would be a better place I'm not so sure about that; some actions of the CIA are questionable at best, but the Soviet Union or KGB were not the good guys by any means, nor is Al Qaeda or Putin's Russia. The failures are far more publicised than the successes. How many $bad_things has the CIA prevented? I don't have a clear answer for that but it's obviously non-zero. How does that balance against the mistakes and crimes? Unclear. And look, obviously the world would be far better off without the CIA, or KGB/FSB, or Al Qaeda, or any of these assholes. But I can't control what Russia or Al Qaeda does and neither can anyone else, and obviously we need to do something to counter these people. It seems to me what we need is a way to have a secret service that doesn't go to the dark side.

ElevenLathe 1y ago
> I don't have a clear answer for that but it's obviously non-zero. This isn't obvious to me. Can you help me understand?
- ACCount36 1y ago
  The last major intelligence coup CIA had (that we know of) was when the agency called the Russia's invasion of Ukraine months in advance. Going public with that was a bold call - CIA put its reputation on the line. But Ukraine was more prepared because of it - and so were its allies. A lot of Ukrainian officials didn't believe that the war was about to start up until the moment it did. Imagine how much worse the situation could have been without US beating the drum.
  - ElevenLathe 1y ago
    That's intelligence gathering. I don't personally have any problems with the CIA's literal spying and intelligence operations. That's what the voters were sold on when it was set up. Gathering accurate information for our democratically elected officials to use to make their decisions can only be a good thing, assuming they follow the rules and leave Americans and America alone (which they of course don't). The entire issue I and most people have with the CIA is that it isn't just a bunch of guys having coded conversations on park benches in foreign capitals and writing thick reports. Yes, those guys are there, but mainly its an unaccountable army that ignores the rules of war and does tons of illegal assassinations, blackmail, etc. These are the lowest of the low. These are people that, in any just society, should be tried and publicly executed while the citizenry packs a picnic lunch and lights off fireworks to celebrate. We can have the fake-mustache guys without the extralegal murder-for-hire and using-computers-to-industrialize-domestic-political-blackmail guys.