8 ms·

Girls Need Math

101 points by pooriaazimi 14y ago

pooriaazimi 14y ago
In case someone wonders why I thought it's HN-worthy: There are lots of teenagers on HN. I remember a poll from quite a while ago that a good 300 had answered "I'm under 17" or something like that. Now there must be more of them and this might be of interest to them. What actually got me into programming was a writer (of computer-related topics) praising my absolutely shitty Flash app/game when I was 14 (or maybe 13). It felt really good. Having someone (who is already successful) tell you at that age that you shouldn't care if you're not the best and what matters is how much you try means a great deal. It did, at least to me. It's really a cliché article, but I'm glad it made it to the front page. Amidst all these Big Co nonsense articles.
- Shank 14y ago
  HS student here: We have a good collective of students who hang out after class ends every couple days to discuss & practice Cyber Security. The unfortunate problem is that the majority of the guys overshadow the girls so much in regards to behavior that we have to do similar motivational runs to keep people in that deserve to be there. At least where I'm at, there's an air of disrespect that constantly has to get pushed back, lest the truly inspired people leave out of boredom or hatred for it. Thanks!
anuraj 14y ago
Why would a 14 year old be taught C++ and low level networking? Familiarizing them with a high level scripting language (like python say) will not do? Will you teach surgery to a 14 year old? Will you teach them to design and construct a building?
- seabee 14y ago
  Why shouldn't they learn C++ and low-level networking?
  - Tichy 14y ago
    Because it is not as useful as other languages?
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      Useful in what sense? Are you _using_ an operating system? What language was that written in? So how useful is it? NB: I'm taking your comments to apply equally to C as C++, given the prevalence of C in operating systems. If you really would not have said the same thing about C, I retract my comments.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        If as a 14 year old your plan is to write an operating system, learning C might make some sense. It just seems like a very unlikely scenario to me. Also I think a lot of tools for example in Linux are written in other languages. Most likely scenario for using C as a 14 year old might be doing electronics projects, but I think Arduino is most commonly programmed in Java.
        wollw 14y ago
        Arduino is C/C++. It's mostly a C++ abstraction built on top of the avr-libc library. The Arduino IDE is written in Java though.
        Tichy 14y ago
        I think you can program the Arduino in C/C++ (like every other Microcontroller), but I was under the impression that it actually has a Java Runtime and the usual way is to code Arduino programs in Java.
        wollw 14y ago
        The Arduino is based around Atmel's 8 bit AVR architecture which really doesn't have what it takes to run a JVM. The ATmega328P which the Arduino Uno board uses has 32KB of code space and 2KB of SRAM which isn't really enough for something like Java. The normal way Arduino projects are built is by defining a "setup" function and a "loop" function which, when compiled, are actually just called by a hidden C++ file with a main function that essentially does this: int main(void) { setup(); for (;;) loop(); } The actual file does a bit more and can be found in their git repository here: https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/hardware/arduino/cores/arduino/main.cpp https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/hardware/ardu...
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  It was 1997. I was 6 at the time so I don't know, but probably python/etc. were less known at the time or deploying them was harder than C++ on Windows.
- quesera 14y ago
  Don't underestimate children, or girls. I know sub-14 year olds who are fluent in C and a couple flavors of assembly language.
  - batista 14y ago
    And I know tons of them that cannot even pin point their country on the maps. What's with using outliers as examples?
    - quesera 14y ago
      The point is that these are not outliers in aptitude. They're outliers in opportunities offered. Underestimating kids is a huge societal failure. We do it a lot. It offends me. I'm not sure you read the article, or noticed the comment I was replying to. Why would anyone not offer a class in hard stuff to 14 year olds?? 14 is not some tender sensitive age where kids need coddling.
      - batista 14y ago
        >The point is that these are not outliers in aptitude. They're outliers in opportunities offered. Kids that can program in "several assembly languages" (your words) are just outliers in "opportunities offered"? Even in college, heck, even in CS majors, there are kids that "get it" and kids that do not. So, no kids that are programming geniuses at 10 are not just outliers in opportunities. Besides, the kids that could not pinpoint their country on the map were ALSO taught Geography. They weren't lacking in "opportunities", they lacked in skills, attention, etc. >Why would anyone not offer a class in hard stuff to 14 year olds?? 14 is not some tender sensitive age where kids need coddling. And why would that hard stuff be C++? It's not like it's something good to teach even for adults...
    - snprbob86 14y ago
      I started learning C++ during my freshman year of High School, that was at about 14. I don't really consider myself an outlier... Hell, I was a pretty typical B+ student from grade school, straight through to my bachelor degree. C++ was hard, but I had already fallen in love with the magic of making the computer do things with some VB. As a result, I was motivated enough to fight my way through a C++ book. Kids need a special blend of internal motivation, external motivation, love, and support. Given those things, I promise you that kids will surprise you. Every. Single. Time. I've met some 14 year olds at http://www.studentrnd.com http://www.studentrnd.com that code circles around most college graduates. It's not because these kids are intellectual outliers. It's because they have a place to gather with other smart kids and challenge each other to build something just a little bigger and just a little better. We need to start expecting more from kids and providing them the opportunities to prove that they are deserving of those expectations.
- logn 14y ago
  C++ was taught in my high school. A good teacher can make C++ learnable. You just focus on using a sane subset of the language and it can make sense to beginners. Also going from C++ to Java is a lot easier (and others I'd imagine too) because C++ forces you to master pointers. And of course, Java is filled with pointers but the syntax hides it.
- jmvoodoo 14y ago
  I think C and low level networking are great things for beginners to learn. I started learning C at age 9 and networking around age 12. C is great because it teaches a ton about how computers actually work, and practically forces you to learn CS concepts, without having to go as far as program counters, etc. in assembly. Low level networking is great because it teaches how properly architected systems are built in layers that each serve a particular purpose. It also helps tremendously when building systems later on in your career. You have no idea how many "programmers" I have interviewed that can't even write a bubble sort because all they learned was Array.sort(). Starting with C fixes this problem, and sets the stage for proper learning (and appreciation) of high level languages. The other thing that I would really focus on at a young age is troubleshooting. It teaches you how to think in a way that not many other things can.
- sp332 14y ago
  You're over-estimating the difficulty. I just did a networking project in C, and the APIs are quite straightforward and well-documented.
- irahul 14y ago
  > Why would a 14 year old be taught C++ and low level networking? There is an entry age for learning C++? Tell me more about it. /s > Will you teach surgery to a 14 year old? Apparently high school biology followed by 5 years of undergrad followed by 2 years of grad is the same as learning C++. Now don't go on a tangent about how CS schools need math foundation and are 4 years and you need grad school for deeper understanding. CS education isn't under contention - C++ is. C++ doesn't need a big foundation. An average 14 year old will pick up C++ just fine.
- shmerl 14y ago
  And why not?
- TallGuyShort 14y ago
  I learned C and C++ when I was 11, having only done BASIC before that. Why hold 14 year-olds back if they're capable of doing it?
kennyt 14y ago
What would be interesting is a follow-up 15 years later. Would be really cool if she turned out to be a programming monster.
logn 14y ago
I grew up in Catholic schools which were not co-ed. I disliked so much about a single-sex education, but I'd imagine that for girls it can be beneficial in this respect. We need to do all we can to encourage girls in match/science/CS. The shortage of women in incredible. And it will lead to women not being represented not just in lower-level single contributor jobs, but also at the executive level as men move from programmer to manager to VP.
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  This again. >We need to do all we can to encourage girls in match/science/CS. // Why is sex so important to math/science/CS that you must, presumably, aim for a population that is directly representative of the proportions in the wider population. Presumably you're also concerned that there is an under-representation of men in, oh I don't know, 'family and consumer science'? If not, why not?
  - logn 14y ago
    Well, computers are what I know so I'm concerned about that. I guess if I were a male nurse I'd be saying the same thing about men. I think it's important to have somewhat equal representation. First, we have a shortage of developers so this is an easy way to address that. Second, like the subject of this article, a lot of girls would be interested in CS but because of the lack of women they're turned off. This is a real shame. Third, CS people are literally designing our future. Do we want to live in a world as envisioned by men or as white men or as a fair balance of people?
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      There are 2^(6 billion) subgroups of humanity. A large number [1] of those subgroups are poorly represented among developers - the number is too large to represent with a long integer. Why do you choose one particular subgroup to be concerned about? [1] The number is, however, very small in comparison to 2^(6 billion).
      - 14y ago
oob205 14y ago
I initially read this without looking at the date at the top (1997). Made me a little sad that I assumed the entire exchange happened recently. Not much has changed in the 15 years since.
orangethirty 14y ago
Good post. Today my niece and I are going to start hacking her first programs, a website and an arduino (turn on/off an LED). It helps not to treat girls as "girls" (in the traditional US media style), but as people. Makes a lot of difference. They struggle not because of their gender but due to the difficulty of the problems.
k2xl 14y ago
this reminds me of stephen wolfram's talk at TED recently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OVlfAUPJg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OVlfAUPJg
karpathy 14y ago
I've experienced something similar from the other point of view. I was one of the 15 guys in class and sat next to the only girl in the class. I remember the teacher giving us exercises and I would type up the code in few minutes, while she would struggle for half hour. She kept telling me how much smarter I was and how she didn't get it, and I would help her through it. What she never realized was that I've already implemented a 90% similar code twice in the last month in my spare time. Or that after she got off the school to hang out with her friends, I went to the library to do some reading, or write the next module of the awesome game I was developing. What I'm trying to say is that in my experience the smarter ones is a lazy way of saying "the ones that had more interest and spent much more time on it already than you did". And of course, the argument isn't unique to girls and applies just as well to other guy friends. But in the end, in my experience it has always traced back to raw interest in the topic. So I've always said that girls are not different in any mystical raw Mathematical intelligence way, it's just that for some reason they tend to have less interest in these topics, on average. And why is that? Upbringing and early biases is my best guess - The mother who pulls away the rocket ship from a girls hands and puts in a Barbie is at fault. (But realistically, it is probably only one of the factors.) Worst of all, there is a positive feedback loop involved where if someone thinks they are not good at something, they will only become less and less interested.
- davidbalbert 14y ago
  I think you're largely correct, but you're probably underestimating how much societal pressure goes into making things this way. Parents taking away the rocket ship is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only are young girls pushed away from science and other subjects that are considered masculine, but they're also socialized to have a "broad range" of interests and not to obsess over any one thing, which is the exact trait that enabled me and many other programmers I know to get ahead in programming. I underestimated it too until I read Unlocking the Clubhouse (http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=8515&ttype=2 http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=8515&#3...) a few months ago. For problems this large and systemic, significant corrective action and positive reinforcement are required.
  - 14y ago
TWAndrews 14y ago
I'm going to save this and show it to my daughter (2 1/2 now) when the time is right.

101 points by pooriaazimi 14y ago

In case someone wonders why I thought it's HN-worthy: There are lots of teenagers on HN. I remember a poll from quite a while ago that a good 300 had answered "I'm under 17" or something like that. Now there must be more of them and this might be of interest to them. What actually got me into programming was a writer (of computer-related topics) praising my absolutely shitty Flash app/game when I was 14 (or maybe 13). It felt really good. Having someone (who is already successful) tell you at that age that you shouldn't care if you're not the best and what matters is how much you try means a great deal. It did, at least to me. It's really a cliché article, but I'm glad it made it to the front page. Amidst all these Big Co nonsense articles.

Shank 14y ago
HS student here: We have a good collective of students who hang out after class ends every couple days to discuss & practice Cyber Security. The unfortunate problem is that the majority of the guys overshadow the girls so much in regards to behavior that we have to do similar motivational runs to keep people in that deserve to be there. At least where I'm at, there's an air of disrespect that constantly has to get pushed back, lest the truly inspired people leave out of boredom or hatred for it. Thanks!

anuraj 14y ago

Why would a 14 year old be taught C++ and low level networking? Familiarizing them with a high level scripting language (like python say) will not do? Will you teach surgery to a 14 year old? Will you teach them to design and construct a building?

seabee 14y ago
Why shouldn't they learn C++ and low-level networking?
- Tichy 14y ago
  Because it is not as useful as other languages?
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    Useful in what sense? Are you _using_ an operating system? What language was that written in? So how useful is it? NB: I'm taking your comments to apply equally to C as C++, given the prevalence of C in operating systems. If you really would not have said the same thing about C, I retract my comments.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      If as a 14 year old your plan is to write an operating system, learning C might make some sense. It just seems like a very unlikely scenario to me. Also I think a lot of tools for example in Linux are written in other languages. Most likely scenario for using C as a 14 year old might be doing electronics projects, but I think Arduino is most commonly programmed in Java.
      - wollw 14y ago
        Arduino is C/C++. It's mostly a C++ abstraction built on top of the avr-libc library. The Arduino IDE is written in Java though.
        Tichy 14y ago
        I think you can program the Arduino in C/C++ (like every other Microcontroller), but I was under the impression that it actually has a Java Runtime and the usual way is to code Arduino programs in Java.
        wollw 14y ago
        The Arduino is based around Atmel's 8 bit AVR architecture which really doesn't have what it takes to run a JVM. The ATmega328P which the Arduino Uno board uses has 32KB of code space and 2KB of SRAM which isn't really enough for something like Java. The normal way Arduino projects are built is by defining a "setup" function and a "loop" function which, when compiled, are actually just called by a hidden C++ file with a main function that essentially does this: int main(void) { setup(); for (;;) loop(); } The actual file does a bit more and can be found in their git repository here: https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/hardware/arduino/cores/arduino/main.cpp https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/hardware/ardu...
pooriaazimi 14y ago
It was 1997. I was 6 at the time so I don't know, but probably python/etc. were less known at the time or deploying them was harder than C++ on Windows.
quesera 14y ago
Don't underestimate children, or girls. I know sub-14 year olds who are fluent in C and a couple flavors of assembly language.
- batista 14y ago
  And I know tons of them that cannot even pin point their country on the maps. What's with using outliers as examples?
  - quesera 14y ago
    The point is that these are not outliers in aptitude. They're outliers in opportunities offered. Underestimating kids is a huge societal failure. We do it a lot. It offends me. I'm not sure you read the article, or noticed the comment I was replying to. Why would anyone not offer a class in hard stuff to 14 year olds?? 14 is not some tender sensitive age where kids need coddling.
    - batista 14y ago
      >The point is that these are not outliers in aptitude. They're outliers in opportunities offered. Kids that can program in "several assembly languages" (your words) are just outliers in "opportunities offered"? Even in college, heck, even in CS majors, there are kids that "get it" and kids that do not. So, no kids that are programming geniuses at 10 are not just outliers in opportunities. Besides, the kids that could not pinpoint their country on the map were ALSO taught Geography. They weren't lacking in "opportunities", they lacked in skills, attention, etc. >Why would anyone not offer a class in hard stuff to 14 year olds?? 14 is not some tender sensitive age where kids need coddling. And why would that hard stuff be C++? It's not like it's something good to teach even for adults...
  - snprbob86 14y ago
    I started learning C++ during my freshman year of High School, that was at about 14. I don't really consider myself an outlier... Hell, I was a pretty typical B+ student from grade school, straight through to my bachelor degree. C++ was hard, but I had already fallen in love with the magic of making the computer do things with some VB. As a result, I was motivated enough to fight my way through a C++ book. Kids need a special blend of internal motivation, external motivation, love, and support. Given those things, I promise you that kids will surprise you. Every. Single. Time. I've met some 14 year olds at http://www.studentrnd.com http://www.studentrnd.com that code circles around most college graduates. It's not because these kids are intellectual outliers. It's because they have a place to gather with other smart kids and challenge each other to build something just a little bigger and just a little better. We need to start expecting more from kids and providing them the opportunities to prove that they are deserving of those expectations.
logn 14y ago
C++ was taught in my high school. A good teacher can make C++ learnable. You just focus on using a sane subset of the language and it can make sense to beginners. Also going from C++ to Java is a lot easier (and others I'd imagine too) because C++ forces you to master pointers. And of course, Java is filled with pointers but the syntax hides it.
jmvoodoo 14y ago
I think C and low level networking are great things for beginners to learn. I started learning C at age 9 and networking around age 12. C is great because it teaches a ton about how computers actually work, and practically forces you to learn CS concepts, without having to go as far as program counters, etc. in assembly. Low level networking is great because it teaches how properly architected systems are built in layers that each serve a particular purpose. It also helps tremendously when building systems later on in your career. You have no idea how many "programmers" I have interviewed that can't even write a bubble sort because all they learned was Array.sort(). Starting with C fixes this problem, and sets the stage for proper learning (and appreciation) of high level languages. The other thing that I would really focus on at a young age is troubleshooting. It teaches you how to think in a way that not many other things can.
sp332 14y ago
You're over-estimating the difficulty. I just did a networking project in C, and the APIs are quite straightforward and well-documented.
irahul 14y ago
> Why would a 14 year old be taught C++ and low level networking? There is an entry age for learning C++? Tell me more about it. /s > Will you teach surgery to a 14 year old? Apparently high school biology followed by 5 years of undergrad followed by 2 years of grad is the same as learning C++. Now don't go on a tangent about how CS schools need math foundation and are 4 years and you need grad school for deeper understanding. CS education isn't under contention - C++ is. C++ doesn't need a big foundation. An average 14 year old will pick up C++ just fine.
shmerl 14y ago
And why not?
TallGuyShort 14y ago
I learned C and C++ when I was 11, having only done BASIC before that. Why hold 14 year-olds back if they're capable of doing it?

kennyt 14y ago

What would be interesting is a follow-up 15 years later. Would be really cool if she turned out to be a programming monster.

logn 14y ago

I grew up in Catholic schools which were not co-ed. I disliked so much about a single-sex education, but I'd imagine that for girls it can be beneficial in this respect. We need to do all we can to encourage girls in match/science/CS. The shortage of women in incredible. And it will lead to women not being represented not just in lower-level single contributor jobs, but also at the executive level as men move from programmer to manager to VP.

pbhjpbhj 14y ago
This again. >We need to do all we can to encourage girls in match/science/CS. // Why is sex so important to math/science/CS that you must, presumably, aim for a population that is directly representative of the proportions in the wider population. Presumably you're also concerned that there is an under-representation of men in, oh I don't know, 'family and consumer science'? If not, why not?
- logn 14y ago
  Well, computers are what I know so I'm concerned about that. I guess if I were a male nurse I'd be saying the same thing about men. I think it's important to have somewhat equal representation. First, we have a shortage of developers so this is an easy way to address that. Second, like the subject of this article, a lot of girls would be interested in CS but because of the lack of women they're turned off. This is a real shame. Third, CS people are literally designing our future. Do we want to live in a world as envisioned by men or as white men or as a fair balance of people?
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    There are 2^(6 billion) subgroups of humanity. A large number [1] of those subgroups are poorly represented among developers - the number is too large to represent with a long integer. Why do you choose one particular subgroup to be concerned about? [1] The number is, however, very small in comparison to 2^(6 billion).
    - 14y ago

oob205 14y ago

I initially read this without looking at the date at the top (1997). Made me a little sad that I assumed the entire exchange happened recently. Not much has changed in the 15 years since.

orangethirty 14y ago

Good post. Today my niece and I are going to start hacking her first programs, a website and an arduino (turn on/off an LED). It helps not to treat girls as "girls" (in the traditional US media style), but as people. Makes a lot of difference. They struggle not because of their gender but due to the difficulty of the problems.

k2xl 14y ago

this reminds me of stephen wolfram's talk at TED recently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OVlfAUPJg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60OVlfAUPJg

karpathy 14y ago

I've experienced something similar from the other point of view. I was one of the 15 guys in class and sat next to the only girl in the class. I remember the teacher giving us exercises and I would type up the code in few minutes, while she would struggle for half hour. She kept telling me how much smarter I was and how she didn't get it, and I would help her through it. What she never realized was that I've already implemented a 90% similar code twice in the last month in my spare time. Or that after she got off the school to hang out with her friends, I went to the library to do some reading, or write the next module of the awesome game I was developing. What I'm trying to say is that in my experience the smarter ones is a lazy way of saying "the ones that had more interest and spent much more time on it already than you did". And of course, the argument isn't unique to girls and applies just as well to other guy friends. But in the end, in my experience it has always traced back to raw interest in the topic. So I've always said that girls are not different in any mystical raw Mathematical intelligence way, it's just that for some reason they tend to have less interest in these topics, on average. And why is that? Upbringing and early biases is my best guess - The mother who pulls away the rocket ship from a girls hands and puts in a Barbie is at fault. (But realistically, it is probably only one of the factors.) Worst of all, there is a positive feedback loop involved where if someone thinks they are not good at something, they will only become less and less interested.

davidbalbert 14y ago
I think you're largely correct, but you're probably underestimating how much societal pressure goes into making things this way. Parents taking away the rocket ship is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only are young girls pushed away from science and other subjects that are considered masculine, but they're also socialized to have a "broad range" of interests and not to obsess over any one thing, which is the exact trait that enabled me and many other programmers I know to get ahead in programming. I underestimated it too until I read Unlocking the Clubhouse (http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=8515&ttype=2 http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=8515&#3...) a few months ago. For problems this large and systemic, significant corrective action and positive reinforcement are required.
- 14y ago

TWAndrews 14y ago

I'm going to save this and show it to my daughter (2 1/2 now) when the time is right.