6 ms·

Does France have some laws how an algorithm is allowed to behave?

by sva_ 1y ago

dev_l1x_be 1y ago
According to the imaginatory rules of lawyers / bankers in power.
xyzal 1y ago
Most countries have laws against foreign interference. I presume disproportionately propagating far-right content via algorithm might very well count as such an interference.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  Apparently while accusations of "foreign interference" are part of the background of the investigation, the actual charges that are the main current focus of the criminal investigation are (roughly translated) modification of an automated data processing system by an organized gang, and fraudulent extraction of data from an automated data processing system by an organized gang. https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2025-07/2025-07-11%20-%20CP%20X.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
- bluescrn 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - motorest 1y ago
    > But disproportionately propagating far-left content is cool. Twitter was already caught hard coding rules to downrank content that reported Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and Russia has been continuously conducting a destabilization campaign in Europe by supporting radical fringe political movements, both far left and far right. Stick to the facts.
- amelius 1y ago
  How do you prove it?
  - xyzal 1y ago
    Not that hard really (found only German example though) https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessinvestigationgermanelections2025-activity-7298220015902679040-JR7-/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessi...
    - amelius 1y ago
      What if e.g. right-leaning content gets more likes/upvotes and this makes the algorithm show the posts more? That way, the algorithm can still be neutral, but the result is not.
      - aspenmayer 1y ago
        "The left can't meme" is just one instance of so-called "meme magic" that came good, if good is what you see in the enterprise or if the particular ends justified the memes. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-left-cant-meme https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-left-cant-meme https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/meme-magic https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/meme-magic https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ | https://web.archive.org/web/20210924231415/https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210924231415/https://unherd.co... https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-occult-online-supporters-believe-pepe-meme-magic-got-him-elected/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-occult-online-support... | https://web.archive.org/web/20170125155034/http://motherboard.vice.com/read/trumps-occult-online-supporters-believe-pepe-meme-magic-got-him-elected https://web.archive.org/web/20170125155034/http://motherboar... As for me? I am beside myself. I view the content as part performance, part farce, all kayfabe. Trump et al learned from the best: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#A_World_Without_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#A_World_Wit... > In Russia, Vladimir Putin and his cabinet of political technologists create mass confusion. Vladislav Surkov uses ideas from art to turn Russian politics into a bewildering piece of theatre. Donald Trump employs the same techniques in his presidential campaign by using language from Occupy Wall Street. Curtis asserts that Trump "defeated journalism" by rendering its fact-checking abilities irrelevant. > The American Left's attempt to resist Trump on the internet had no effect. In fact, they were just feeding the social media corporations who valued their many additional clicks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov > Vladislav Yuryevich Surkov (Russian: Владислав Юрьевич Сурков; born 21 September 1964) is a Russian politician. He was First Deputy Chief of the Russian Presidential Administration from 1999 to 2011, during which time he was often viewed as the main ideologist of the Kremlin who proposed and implemented the concept of sovereign democracy in Russia. From December 2011 until May 2013, Surkov served as the Russian Federation's Deputy Prime Minister. After his resignation, Surkov returned to the Presidential Executive Office and became a personal adviser of Vladimir Putin on relationships with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Ukraine. > BBC documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis credits Surkov's blend of theater and politics with keeping Putin, and Putin's chosen successors, in power since 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy > Whilst talking about sovereign democracy in 2006, Mikhail Kasyanov said that "... the aims of this doctrine are quite clear: the concentration and holding of political power and property at any cost. The consequences of this are already evident, including the glorification of populism, the steady destruction of private and public institutions and the departure from the principles of the law, democracy, and the free market." > United States Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Daniel Fried (in office 2005–2009) stated in a 2007 interview: > > I get nervous when people put labels in front of democracy. Sovereign democracy, managed democracy, people's democracy, socialist democracy, Aryan democracy, Islamic democracy—I am not a big fan of adjectives. Managed democracy doesn't sound like democracy. Sovereign democracy strikes me as meaningless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy > Guided democracy, also called directed democracy and managed democracy, is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto authoritarian government or, in some cases, as an autocratic government. Such hybrid regimes are legitimized by elections, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals. > In a guided democracy, the government controls elections such that the people can exercise democratic rights without truly changing public policy. While they follow basic democratic principles, there can be major deviations towards authoritarianism. Under managed democracy, the state's continuous use of propaganda techniques, such as through manufacturing consent, prevents the electorate from having a significant impact on policy. > The concept is also related to semi-democracy, also known as anocracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_No_Strings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_No_Strings > Down where the Volga flows > There's a Russian rendez-vous > Where me and Ivan go > But I'd rather go with you, hey > There are no strings on me Be well, anon.
- j3th9n 1y ago
  Define disproportionately propagating far-right content.
  - akie 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - xyzal 1y ago
    Where is Mecha Hitler when you need him?
  - throw0101b 1y ago
    > Define disproportionately propagating far-right content. How about: > Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence firm xAI has deleted “inappropriate” posts on X after the company’s chatbot, Grok, began praising Adolf Hitler, referring to itself as MechaHitler and making antisemitic comments in response to user queries. […] > “The white man stands for innovation, grit and not bending to PC nonsense,” Grok said in a subsequent post. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/grok-ai-praised-hitler-antisemitism-x-ntwnfb https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/grok-ai-p... Or: > In a series of posts – often picking up language from users or responding to their goading – Grok repeatedly abused [Polish PM] Tusk as “a fucking traitor”, “a ginger whore” and said the former European Council president was “an opportunist who sells sovereignty for EU jobs”. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/08/musks-grok-ai-bot-generates-expletive-laden-rants-to-questions-on-polish-politics https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/08/musks-gro... Or last month's > Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence chatbot Grok had been repeatedly mentioning “white genocide” in South Africa in its responses to unrelated topics and telling users it was “instructed by my creators” to accept the genocide “as real and racially motivated”. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/may/14/elon-musk-grok-white-genocide https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/may/14/elon-musk...
    - chrisco255 1y ago
      A bot went off the rails, and was subsequently corrected. Again, what is the problem? I thought France had freedom of speech but maybe not?
poulpy123 1y ago
I'm not overly familiar with the law and I'm not defending that (I despise both the government and Elon Musk) but there are indeed laws regulating speeches and on top of that laws are flexible and the politician's power over them is quite strong. They had no problem forbidding Russian tv channels in a few days back when the war in Ukraine started
CrlNvl 1y ago
Well, in a way yes. During an election day and the day before, you are not allowed to push official communication (ie a political party can tell you "Go vote" but not "Go vote for us because we will put a stop to immigration") be it via a website, email, mail, etc. See https://presidentielle2022.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/l-election/la-campagne/quelles-sont-les-regles-concernant-la-veille-et-le-jour-du-vote.html https://presidentielle2022.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/l-elec.... So a sponsored post from a political party appearing in your timeline would be an issue due to the platform if it ignores these rules.

Does France have some laws how an algorithm is allowed to behave?

by sva_ 1y ago

Does France have some laws how an algorithm is allowed to behave?

dev_l1x_be 1y ago

According to the imaginatory rules of lawyers / bankers in power.

xyzal 1y ago

Most countries have laws against foreign interference. I presume disproportionately propagating far-right content via algorithm might very well count as such an interference.

dragonwriter 1y ago
Apparently while accusations of "foreign interference" are part of the background of the investigation, the actual charges that are the main current focus of the criminal investigation are (roughly translated) modification of an automated data processing system by an organized gang, and fraudulent extraction of data from an automated data processing system by an organized gang. https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2025-07/2025-07-11%20-%20CP%20X.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
bluescrn 1y ago
[flagged]
- motorest 1y ago
  > But disproportionately propagating far-left content is cool. Twitter was already caught hard coding rules to downrank content that reported Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and Russia has been continuously conducting a destabilization campaign in Europe by supporting radical fringe political movements, both far left and far right. Stick to the facts.
amelius 1y ago
How do you prove it?
- xyzal 1y ago
  Not that hard really (found only German example though) https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessinvestigationgermanelections2025-activity-7298220015902679040-JR7-/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessi...
  - amelius 1y ago
    What if e.g. right-leaning content gets more likes/upvotes and this makes the algorithm show the posts more? That way, the algorithm can still be neutral, but the result is not.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      "The left can't meme" is just one instance of so-called "meme magic" that came good, if good is what you see in the enterprise or if the particular ends justified the memes. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-left-cant-meme https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-left-cant-meme https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/meme-magic https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/meme-magic https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ | https://web.archive.org/web/20210924231415/https://unherd.com/2021/08/why-the-left-cant-meme/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210924231415/https://unherd.co... https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-occult-online-supporters-believe-pepe-meme-magic-got-him-elected/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-occult-online-support... | https://web.archive.org/web/20170125155034/http://motherboard.vice.com/read/trumps-occult-online-supporters-believe-pepe-meme-magic-got-him-elected https://web.archive.org/web/20170125155034/http://motherboar... As for me? I am beside myself. I view the content as part performance, part farce, all kayfabe. Trump et al learned from the best: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#A_World_Without_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation#A_World_Wit... > In Russia, Vladimir Putin and his cabinet of political technologists create mass confusion. Vladislav Surkov uses ideas from art to turn Russian politics into a bewildering piece of theatre. Donald Trump employs the same techniques in his presidential campaign by using language from Occupy Wall Street. Curtis asserts that Trump "defeated journalism" by rendering its fact-checking abilities irrelevant. > The American Left's attempt to resist Trump on the internet had no effect. In fact, they were just feeding the social media corporations who valued their many additional clicks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov > Vladislav Yuryevich Surkov (Russian: Владислав Юрьевич Сурков; born 21 September 1964) is a Russian politician. He was First Deputy Chief of the Russian Presidential Administration from 1999 to 2011, during which time he was often viewed as the main ideologist of the Kremlin who proposed and implemented the concept of sovereign democracy in Russia. From December 2011 until May 2013, Surkov served as the Russian Federation's Deputy Prime Minister. After his resignation, Surkov returned to the Presidential Executive Office and became a personal adviser of Vladimir Putin on relationships with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Ukraine. > BBC documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis credits Surkov's blend of theater and politics with keeping Putin, and Putin's chosen successors, in power since 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy > Whilst talking about sovereign democracy in 2006, Mikhail Kasyanov said that "... the aims of this doctrine are quite clear: the concentration and holding of political power and property at any cost. The consequences of this are already evident, including the glorification of populism, the steady destruction of private and public institutions and the departure from the principles of the law, democracy, and the free market." > United States Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Daniel Fried (in office 2005–2009) stated in a 2007 interview: > > I get nervous when people put labels in front of democracy. Sovereign democracy, managed democracy, people's democracy, socialist democracy, Aryan democracy, Islamic democracy—I am not a big fan of adjectives. Managed democracy doesn't sound like democracy. Sovereign democracy strikes me as meaningless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy > Guided democracy, also called directed democracy and managed democracy, is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto authoritarian government or, in some cases, as an autocratic government. Such hybrid regimes are legitimized by elections, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals. > In a guided democracy, the government controls elections such that the people can exercise democratic rights without truly changing public policy. While they follow basic democratic principles, there can be major deviations towards authoritarianism. Under managed democracy, the state's continuous use of propaganda techniques, such as through manufacturing consent, prevents the electorate from having a significant impact on policy. > The concept is also related to semi-democracy, also known as anocracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_No_Strings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_No_Strings > Down where the Volga flows > There's a Russian rendez-vous > Where me and Ivan go > But I'd rather go with you, hey > There are no strings on me Be well, anon.
j3th9n 1y ago
Define disproportionately propagating far-right content.
- akie 1y ago
  [flagged]
- xyzal 1y ago
  Where is Mecha Hitler when you need him?
- throw0101b 1y ago
  > Define disproportionately propagating far-right content. How about: > Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence firm xAI has deleted “inappropriate” posts on X after the company’s chatbot, Grok, began praising Adolf Hitler, referring to itself as MechaHitler and making antisemitic comments in response to user queries. […] > “The white man stands for innovation, grit and not bending to PC nonsense,” Grok said in a subsequent post. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/grok-ai-praised-hitler-antisemitism-x-ntwnfb https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/grok-ai-p... Or: > In a series of posts – often picking up language from users or responding to their goading – Grok repeatedly abused [Polish PM] Tusk as “a fucking traitor”, “a ginger whore” and said the former European Council president was “an opportunist who sells sovereignty for EU jobs”. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/08/musks-grok-ai-bot-generates-expletive-laden-rants-to-questions-on-polish-politics https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/08/musks-gro... Or last month's > Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence chatbot Grok had been repeatedly mentioning “white genocide” in South Africa in its responses to unrelated topics and telling users it was “instructed by my creators” to accept the genocide “as real and racially motivated”. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/may/14/elon-musk-grok-white-genocide https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/may/14/elon-musk...
  - chrisco255 1y ago
    A bot went off the rails, and was subsequently corrected. Again, what is the problem? I thought France had freedom of speech but maybe not?

poulpy123 1y ago

I'm not overly familiar with the law and I'm not defending that (I despise both the government and Elon Musk) but there are indeed laws regulating speeches and on top of that laws are flexible and the politician's power over them is quite strong. They had no problem forbidding Russian tv channels in a few days back when the war in Ukraine started

CrlNvl 1y ago

Well, in a way yes. During an election day and the day before, you are not allowed to push official communication (ie a political party can tell you "Go vote" but not "Go vote for us because we will put a stop to immigration") be it via a website, email, mail, etc. See https://presidentielle2022.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/l-election/la-campagne/quelles-sont-les-regles-concernant-la-veille-et-le-jour-du-vote.html https://presidentielle2022.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/l-elec.... So a sponsored post from a political party appearing in your timeline would be an issue due to the platform if it ignores these rules.